Received: from magus.postgresql.org (magus.postgresql.org [87.238.57.229]) by mail.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDCBF1E3525D for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 16:46:46 -0300 (ADT) Received: from mail-lb0-f174.google.com ([209.85.217.174]) by magus.postgresql.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1SpPLV-00057w-J4 for pgsql-www@postgresql.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 19:46:45 +0000 Received: by lbbgm6 with SMTP id gm6so4672958lbb.19 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 12:46:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=YFf+FoDY+vZ0MzNdNBscSpZlG+fQHQQ+QWCkyzWcqWk=; b=QlFmLsGXP3SJRjZjYnLLthWdOr653dYs5oHrq//IW5Ht3X7KnXgtpc6dkZsY/YX7QS KrsAYCEFZT5yIXWbf2fmPXcuiIoToGGrA/2X9Qk1tnTGD2JB0WWfTiCabG/B00GVHRa+ fJQ7Hbnl0xPTeI+tfPlxpxDfv00Mmypz7j1ep2REnJIf50ReUt200OWJ3OSQhB0WFrKO Nw5Dk0c/Q8+dNAvLf1S1Z3hCbkD8+pmDrVzQWOFR8VuFSWwbG+wHTFOgXV0nzi9ftMvu vZxxiTs/LXL0vZaLnljdFVKxOBcGOnASVg3/PZ5yvn8mX+P6eeORMSini55bF8eqUKIQ llpw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.36.34 with SMTP id n2mr1810150lbj.62.1342122388431; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 12:46:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.63.148 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jul 2012 12:46:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1341781012.3451.0.camel@lenovo01-laptop03.gunduz.org> <20120709175359.GB5920@momjian.us> <20120710144721.GA31912@momjian.us> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 15:46:28 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Linux Downloads page change From: Scott Mead To: Magnus Hagander Cc: Bruce Momjian , Dave Page , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Devrim_G=DCND=DCZ?= , "pgsql-www@postgresql.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e0cb4efe34ec35247604c4a738fa X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk/lDiA3wKUJh0yefgDSTnaGXsxwRO2UgDIHEjLOFomnLYPFKq+TOVfmiC3Gks2je+RDKY8 X-Pg-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Archive-Number: 201207/93 X-Sequence-Number: 20842 --e0cb4efe34ec35247604c4a738fa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 8:46 AM, Magnus Hagander wrote: > On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 5:45 PM, Scott Mead wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Bruce Momjian > wrote: > >> > >> On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 03:39:54PM +0100, Dave Page wrote: > >> > On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Scott Mead > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > 1) A no-gui option > >> > > The bitrock installers do have this, but at times, the > technology > >> > > isn't > >> > > perfect. Many times, people want to just run a command and have it > >> > > install. > >> > > The idea with an RPM of these binaries is that we get the benefit of > >> > > the > >> > > same binaries across installers, AND lower the barrier to entry by > >> > > making > >> > > rpm -ivh ... just work. > >> > > >> > No technology is perfect, but we have numerous users utilising text, > >> > silent and response file installations quite successfully, including > >> > all the additional post-copy steps the installers undertake. We also > >> > have an unpack mode which is much more like an RPM install in that it > >> > just lays down the binaries. Simply put, you can just run a command > >> > and have it install. > >> > >> Agreed. If the non-GUI mode of the Bitrock installers is broken, please > >> report it and let's fix it. If it can't be fixed, maybe we need to use > >> another installer, but it is not clear what is broken. Are you saying > >> it is better for non-GUI installs because they don't need to supply a > >> flag for non-GUI mode? Shouldn't we just document the flag better? > > > > > > Sorry I'm not being clear here (I've switched timezones just yesterday ). > > I'm not saying that it's broken, just that, from a 'barriers' > perspective, > > many customers end up building their own server-only RPM. They need > > something that is consistent across the many disparate linux distro's > (and > > even just versions of the same distro) that they are running. > > > > Some people do it to distribute through their own repository, some just > > don't want to stay beholden to the linux distro's themselves. Others > just > > need a consistent directory structure across distributions so that their > > teams have one less thing to worry about. The community yum repository > and > > binaries are a great thing, and in shops where linux the distributions > are > > consistent and version-ing is well managed, I would recommend them every > > time. The generic RPM option let's us fill a gap between the two; when > it > > comes to Small-Mid enterprise, it's very hard to stay consistent across > all > > distributions all the time while still making budget and timelines. The > > generic RPM/DEB allows for that middle-ground and lowers barriers in > > mid-sized enterprises that haven't completely gotten their head around > all > > the different aspects of internal distribution. > > > >> > >> > >> The smaller download does make sense --- it is a leaner install. > >> > >> I wonder if the OpenSCG text should more clearly state is doesn't > >> include any GUI componients. > > > > > > Patch attached. > > I noticed two quick things: according to the page, you provide RPMs > for RedHat and SuSE (per the logos - I assume Fedora is included in > the RedHat part), and DEBs for Ubuntu. > > Why do the patches suggest adding it to Debian (not listed) and to "other"? > I'll update our site and get back to you. > > I also for the first time clicked one of those links. To me, the way > that those pages request a login and registratoin to download them is > completely unacceptable. Yes, I realize there is a "there's a download > link at the bottom if you don't want to" (or as you like to phrase it, > "feel anti-social", which is clearly designed to make people sign up). > But I don't think that's acceptable for something to be listed on our > primary download pages. I'm ok (but not with a big margin) with how > EnterpriseDB does it - which is that they deliver your download and > *then* suggest you register as well. (Actually, I see now that they > have stopped doing that completely and instead throw some marketing > and ads for their cloud product at you) > Okay, we'll talk about this internally, but I'm thinking that we'll probably kick the download off and then leave a register page up underneath. --Scottie > > I'd like to see that fixed for the developer bundles as well. -- > Magnus Hagander > Me: http://www.hagander.net/ > Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/ > --e0cb4efe34ec35247604c4a738fa Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 8:46 AM, Magnus Haga= nder <magnus@hagander.net> wrote:
On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 5:45 PM, Sc= ott Mead <scottm@openscg.com&g= t; wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 10:47 AM, Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 03:39:54PM +0100, Dave Page wrote:
>> > On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Scott Mead <scottm@openscg.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > =A0 1) A no-gui option
>> > > =A0 =A0 The bitrock installers do have this, but at time= s, the technology
>> > > isn't
>> > > perfect. =A0Many times, people want to just run a comman= d and have it
>> > > install.
>> > > The idea with an RPM of these binaries is that we get th= e benefit of
>> > > the
>> > > same binaries across installers, AND lower the barrier t= o entry by
>> > > making
>> > > rpm -ivh ... just work.
>> >
>> > No technology is perfect, but we have numerous users utilisin= g text,
>> > silent and response file installations quite successfully, in= cluding
>> > all the additional post-copy steps the installers undertake. = We also
>> > have an unpack mode which is much more like an RPM install in= that it
>> > just lays down the binaries. Simply put, you can just run a c= ommand
>> > and have it install.
>>
>> Agreed. =A0If the non-GUI mode of the Bitrock installers is broken= , please
>> report it and let's fix it. =A0If it can't be fixed, maybe= we need to use
>> another installer, but it is not clear what is broken. =A0Are you = saying
>> it is better for non-GUI installs because they don't need to s= upply a
>> flag for non-GUI mode? =A0Shouldn't we just document the flag = better?
>
>
> Sorry I'm not being clear here (I've switched timezones just y= esterday ).
> I'm not saying that it's broken, just that, from a 'barrie= rs' perspective,
> many customers end up building their own server-only RPM. =A0They need=
> something that is consistent across the many disparate linux distro= 9;s (and
> even just versions of the same distro) that they are running.
>
> Some people do it to distribute through their own repository, some jus= t
> don't want to stay beholden to the linux distro's themselves. = =A0Others just
> need a consistent directory structure across distributions so that the= ir
> teams have one less thing to worry about. =A0The community yum reposit= ory and
> binaries are a great thing, and in shops where linux the distributions= are
> consistent and version-ing is well managed, I would recommend them eve= ry
> time. =A0The generic RPM option let's us fill a gap between the tw= o; when it
> comes to Small-Mid enterprise, it's very hard to stay consistent a= cross all
> distributions all the time while still making budget and timelines. = =A0The
> generic RPM/DEB allows for that middle-ground and lowers barriers in > mid-sized enterprises that haven't completely gotten their head ar= ound all
> the different aspects of internal distribution.
>
>>
>>
>> The smaller download does make sense --- it is a leaner install. >>
>> I wonder if the OpenSCG text should more clearly state is doesn= 9;t
>> include any GUI componients.
>
>
> Patch attached.

I noticed two quick things: according to the page, you provide = RPMs
for RedHat and SuSE (per the logos - I assume Fedora is included in
the RedHat part), and DEBs for Ubuntu.

Why do the patches suggest adding it to Debian (not listed) and to "ot= her"?

I'll update our site and get back t= o you.
=A0

I also for the first time clicked one of those links. To me, the way
that those pages request a login and registratoin to download them is
completely unacceptable. Yes, I realize there is a "there's a down= load
link at the bottom if you don't want to" (or as you like to phrase= it,
"feel anti-social", which is clearly designed to make people sign= up).
But I don't think that's acceptable for something to be listed on o= ur
primary download pages. I'm ok (but not with a big margin) with how
EnterpriseDB does it - which is that they deliver your download and
*then* suggest you register as well. (Actually, I see now that they
have stopped doing that completely and instead throw some marketing
and ads for their cloud product at you)

Okay, we&#= 39;ll talk about this internally, but I'm thinking that we'll proba= bly kick the download off and then leave a register page up underneath.

--Scottie
=A0

I'd like to see that fixed for the developer bundles as well.=A0
--
=A0Magnus Hagander
=A0Me: http://www.ha= gander.net/
=A0Work: http:= //www.redpill-linpro.com/

--e0cb4efe34ec35247604c4a738fa--