Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Changes to Contributor List

From: "Dave Page" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 08:21:09 -0000

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Eisentraut [mailto:[email-masked]] 
> Sent: 05 November 2003 23:11
> To: Josh Berkus
> Cc: [email-masked]; [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Changes to Contributor List
> 
> Josh Berkus writes:
> 
> > If possible, for the upcoming release we'd like to get the 
> Contributor List on
> > developer.postgresql.org updated.   Can everyone please 
> take a gander at:
> > http://developer.postgresql.org/bios.php
> 
> One thing that really puzzles me is this web page:
> 
> http://advocacy.postgresql.org/about/

Personnally I don't see why that whole site isn't part of the main site.

Regards, Dave.

---

From: Robert Treat <[email-masked]>
Date: 06 Nov 2003 09:25:38 -0500

> Personnally I don't see why that whole site isn't part of the main site.

Because when it was originally created the guy doing the main website
and the guy doing the advocacy website weren't big on nuzzling together.

The advocacy site does have different requirements than the main site,
namely its bi-lingualness and the different target audience, but perhaps
with adding bi-lingual capabilities to the main site these two sites
could be brought together.  

Robert Treat 
-- 
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 11:46:41 -0300

> could be brought together.  

Certainly; see the www.debian.org for an example.  They have
multilingual capabilities across the whole site.

-- 
Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>)
"Cómo ponemos nuestros dedos en la arcilla del otro. Eso es la amistad; jugar
al alfarero y ver qué formas se pueden sacar del otro" (C. Halloway en
La Feria de las Tinieblas, R. Bradbury)

---

From: Robert Treat <[email-masked]>
Date: 06 Nov 2003 17:05:22 -0500

> multilingual capabilities across the whole site.
<rant>
we don't need links, we need patches
</rant>

we do have this development in progress, theres just the matter of
getting time to make it happen.

Robert Treat

---

From: Peter Eisentraut <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 23:18:13 +0100 (CET)

> we don't need links, we need patches

Let me ask you the questions that people always ask of us:

How does one get involved?
Where is the code?
What is the plan?
Where is the roadmap?
Where can issues be discussed?
Who is working on this?
How can we help?

-- 
Peter Eisentraut   [email-masked]

---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 14:33:25 -0800

Peter,

> Let me ask you the questions that people always ask of us:

This isn't helping.   What Robert was pointing out is that we don't currently 
have enough people writing HTML and PHP to finish improving the site anytime 
soon.   Robert doesn't need "managerial direction."

Or did you have ambitions to be a PHB?   ;-p

-- 
-Josh Berkus
 Aglio Database Solutions
 San Francisco

---

From: Tom Lane <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 19:47:12 -0500

> This isn't helping.  What Robert was pointing out is that we don't
> currently have enough people writing HTML and PHP to finish improving
> the site anytime soon.

Peter appeared to be asking how additional people could get involved.
Or do you *want* to keep the web group too small to get things done?

			regards, tom lane

---

From: Robert Treat <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 22:42:57 -0500

> How does one get involved?
post proposals to pgsql-www and start coding

> Where is the code?
http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/pgweb/projdisplay.php

> What is the plan?
if you have an itch, scratch it...

> Where is the roadmap?
right now andreas' is working on multi-lingual capabilities. i have half an 
implementation of variable site width i'd love to finish off, and we have 
some pages for things like the release notes that we need to add to the 
dynamic site building scripts.  

on the advocacy site, there is a file called TODO in the main directory that 
has some issues in it that need to be addressed in the current system. 
potentially we will also need to add translated press kits and release notes 
to the system.

on techdocs there is a todo.php file which is probably completely bogus.  
theres some indecision on the direction of this site. I would like to convert 
the whole thing to CVS, including the wiki pages that comprised the guides 
section.  others are testing using bricolage to make a new site at which time 
some of the data would be transitioned over.  i happen to think there are 
several files on this site that should be moved to the main www site, i'd be 
happy to expand on that if people start doing work on it.  really the most 
important thing here is that we get some movement on the site in order to 
ditch the old VM the site lives on and get it on our new web VM.

> Where can issues be discussed?
[email-masked]

> Who is working on this?
myself, dave page, devrim gunduz, andreas grabmller are the primary folks 
doing the work, though there are certainly others involved. [that guy marc 
seems to be involved somewhat ;-) ]

> How can we help?
never send an email saying "you guys should post such and such news item on 
the web site". instead submit the news item yourself and we can have it 
approved and on the site in much less time.   :-)

otherwise it works much like any other open source project, if there is 
something specific you want to work on, post a proposal or ask if anyone else 
is working on it on the -www list.

let me also say on a personal note that if none of this looks interesting but 
there is something else that i am working on that you'd like to get involved 
in, drop me a line.  that last thing i want to do is to continue to 
consolidate work around me, I'd much rather empower others to become regular 
contributors. 

Robert Treat

---

From: Dave Cramer <[email-masked]>
Date: 07 Nov 2003 07:18:37 -0500

Well the current argument aside, I do find it discouraging that there is
a considerable difference between the four sites, advocacy, gborg, dev,
and the main site, not only in form but in substance. 

I am listed on the dev site as a major contributor, but not on the
advocacy site. Where was the list compiled from on the advocacy site?

Dave 

On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 19:47, Tom Lane wrote:
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---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 10:51:03 -0800

Robert,

> theres some indecision on the direction of this site. I would like to
> convert the whole thing to CVS, including the wiki pages that comprised the
> guides section.  others are testing using bricolage to make a new site at
> which time some of the data would be transitioned over. 

Yeah, that's me & Elein & David F.   We feel pretty strongly that PostgreSQL 
needs a place where users can contribute to documentation and help other 
users without learning HTML, SGML, or CVS.   Otherwise, we're throwing away a 
lot of potential contributions and ignoring a lot of the community that wants 
to help but find the barrier to entry too high.

I also see Techdocs as a "test site" for maybe moving more parts of 
postgresql.org to a sophisticated CMS; while CVS is nice for version control, 
it does nothing to help control style consistency, dynamic linking, or 
multi-lingualism, which must all still be done 100% manually.

However, we've been real sluggards about getting this up & running.   So if 
you get the other stuff re-built and we're still lagging, then you'll have 
come up with a very persuasive argument to do things your way.

>  i happen to think
> there are several files on this site that should be moved to the main www
> site, i'd be happy to expand on that if people start doing work on it.

Probably, yes.
 
> really the most important thing here is that we get some movement on the
> site in order to ditch the old VM the site lives on and get it on our new
> web VM.

On techdocs?   What part of that needs to be migrated?

-- 
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 11:22:00 -0800

Tom,

> Or do you *want* to keep the web group too small to get things done?

Ooops!   Sorry, Peter, I *completely* mis-read your e-mail.

-- 
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

---

From: Robert Treat <[email-masked]>
Date: 10 Nov 2003 10:31:42 -0500

> On techdocs?   What part of that needs to be migrated?

Last I check it was the whole thing... techdocs runs on its own VM, the
other sites all run on a different VM. We need to kill the old VM, but
until we move techdocs to it's new home, we can't

Robert Treat

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:48:07 -0400 (AST)

> until we move techdocs to it's new home, we can't

And there is no pressure/hurry for this to be done ... its not a 'simple
move', but a redesign based on new technology ... what is there now,
works, so no pressure

---

From: Justin Clift <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 00:24:31 +0800

> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Robert Treat wrote:
<snip>
> move', but a redesign based on new technology ... what is there now,

 From memory, the OpenOffice.org surveys still run from the techdocs 
virtual machine too.  That may or may not be the case these days, I just 
don't remember.

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift

---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:12:29 -0800

Justin,

> virtual machine too.  That may or may not be the case these days, I just

Really?   I thought that they were running from one of Sun's machines.   Will 
check with Cristian.   

If we're hosting the surveys, I want a "Powered by PostgreSQL" bug on them, 
dammit.   Those get 21,000 views a week.

-- 
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:27:52 -0400 (AST)

> dammit.   Those get 21,000 views a week.

start of current access_log: 217.1.97.253 - - [08/Nov/2003:08:00:28 -0500]
  end of current access_log: 141.211.97.33 - - [10/Nov/2003:13:28:39 -0500]

jobs# grep http://oosurvey.gratismania.ro/user/index.php access_log | egrep -v "images" | wc -l
    2966

looks like its still well used ...

---

From: "Marc G. Fournier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:59:53 -0400 (AST)

In fact: http://oosurvey.gratismania.ro/stats

---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:26:12 -0800

Guys,

> > > If we're hosting the surveys, I want a "Powered by PostgreSQL" bug on
> > > them, dammit.   Those get 21,000 views a week.

Taken care of.  We should get a button up soon.

-- 
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

---

From: Justin Clift <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:42:22 +0800

Hi guys,

Alvaro, do you know how (or if) the people that do stuff for the Debian 
website overcame the problem of everyone needing to know HTML?

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:28:03 -0300

> website overcame the problem of everyone needing to know HTML?

Huh, sorry, no idea at all.  I was just visiting the Debian site.

-- 
Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>)
"Right now the sectors on the hard disk run clockwise, but I heard a rumor that
you can squeeze 0.2% more throughput by running them counterclockwise.
It's worth the effort. Recommended."  (Gerry Pourwelle)

---

From: Justin Clift <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 23:36:42 +0800

> Huh, sorry, no idea at all.  I was just visiting the Debian site.

Rats.  It might still be worth asking them though, just in case they 
found a good solution.

Anyone know the Debian webmasters?  From memory, some of the translation 
volunteers do stuff with/for them.

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift

---

From: Euler Taveira de Oliveira <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:28:30 -0200

> >>website overcame the problem of everyone needing to know HTML?
All the translators do know HTML. And I wanna propose to use the internationalization like Debian Project, eg, using Languages capabilities of Apache Webserver.
Basically we have:
index.html.en
index.html.pt-br
index.html.es
index.html.se
...

> volunteers do stuff with/for them.
I think this is not too hard to translate just the text in the HTML. What do you guys think?

PS> I redesigned the main website and wanna propose it in the end of the afternoon.

Regards,

-- 
Euler Taveira de Oliveira
euler (at) ufgnet.ufg.br
Desenvolvedor Web e Administrador de Sistemas
UFGNet - Universidade Federal de Goiás

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:51:48 -0300

On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 02:28:30PM -0200, Euler Taveira de Oliveira wrote:

> All the translators do know HTML. And I wanna propose to use the
> internationalization like Debian Project, eg, using Languages
> capabilities of Apache Webserver.

If the text could be automatically generated from a DocBook source, then
the translation could be handled by the same mechanism the KDE guys use:
a Docbook -> PO -> Docbook tool.  Translator don't have to know HTML;
they just use KBabel or gtranslator, etc.  That's the theory at least ...

I've mentioned this already regarding documentation translations, maybe
the idea can be useful here.

---

From: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:11:35 -0800

Euler, Alvaro,

> internationalization like Debian Project, eg, using Languages capabilities
> of Apache Webserver. Basically we have:

I manage PostgreSQL's team of translators for advocacy/website stuff, and I 
can tell you that they don't all, or even most, know enough HTML to handle 
even a simple table.  

> they just use KBabel or gtranslator, etc.  That's the theory at least ...

This is a fine idea if we can come up with a tool which is available on all 
major platforms: win95, winNT/2k, Mac OS X, Linux and BSD.   Otherwise, a web 
form will be a *lot* easier to manage.

Personally, even when I'm editing something which someone else has marked up I 
find editing wiki-markup to be *much* easier.   In HTML, it's far two easy to 
accidentially paste over a closing tag or a bracket and screw up the whole 
page.  This will be even more the case if you want to adopt the stricter 
XHTML.

-- 
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

---

From: Michael Glaesemann <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 03:36:23 +0900

From: Michael Glaesemann <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003  3:34:28 AM Asia/Tokyo
To: Josh Berkus <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Changes to Contributor List

> page.  This will be even more the case if you want to adopt the 

Practically, only screw up in terms of whether or not the page still 
validates. Most browsers, with their built-in forgiveness that lets 
them handle the 95% of invalid markup that's out there, won't break any 
more with invalid XHTML than they would with the same (invalid) HTML. 
There are a few browsers that change their behavior slightly depending 
on the document declaration, but from what I gather, the differences a 
slight. And at the extreme, I don't know of any browers that attempt to 
validate the page against the DTD and refuse to display if if they 
don't.

This isn't an excuse to not write the best markup possible, of course.

---

From: Alvaro Herrera <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:17:42 -0300

> form will be a *lot* easier to manage.

Personally, as a seasoned translator ;-), I find a web form practically
unusable compared to a PO catalog editor.  I think the pgAdmin guys have
some indication of a program that works on Windows.  I dunno about Mac
OS X.  Gnome and KDE both have good tools that work on Linux, BSD and
some others.

-- 
Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>)
"Aprende a avergonzarte más ante ti que ante los demás" (Demócrito)