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* Tutorial ??
@ 2000-07-01 01:53 paul simdars <psimdars@lisco.com>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: paul simdars @ 2000-07-01 01:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: pgsql-docs
My feeling is that a user's guide should tell a person how to actually
use the database system.
First, I believe you are unable to start the postmaster from the
information in the tutorial. I believe that is in the RPM readme.
Second, (and I don't know how to do this) is how to actually get into
it. I have read that somewhere but can't remember where. I think there
should be some simple instructions somewhere between 'setting up your
environment' and 'managing a database'. A tutorial should say " type
XXX at the prompt" to start postgres for user XXX. I have often found
that the basic and simple commands for linux programs are the hard ones
to find. I mean, if you look thru the index of the user's guide, where
would you look to see how to actually get the thing started? First
there is the whole SQL language and all its items, and then the perl and
tcl. Then we get to 'setting up the environment' and you think you are
getting close. The next items are all about creating databases, etc.
This seems like the place I would look. When you are actually ready to
set up a database, you tell the syntax about how to do that, but there
is no instruction about how to start up or log in.
Just a suggestion.
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: Tutorial ??
@ 2000-07-05 13:47 Dominic Coallier <dcoallier@shikatronics.com>
parent: paul simdars <psimdars@lisco.com>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Dominic Coallier @ 2000-07-05 13:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: paul simdars <psimdars@lisco.com>; pgsql-docs
Only as a little comment about this message. I'm not pointing anybody...
I am a total newbie with databases but I have been able to install from
scratch PostgreSQL version 7.0.2 and migrate the database we had on 6.3
successfully. Everything I needed to know was written in the little readme
file at src/INSTALL. and since the installation procedures are probably
different from platform to platforms, I guess they could not really be more
specific in their manual. Being more specific would need to have
installation procedures for all platforms ...
So, to the people in charged of the documentations on PostgreSQ:L, I'm
telling you that somebody with no experience on databases at all was able to
install PostgreSQL 7.0.2 and migrate the database from 6.3 within an hour
using those documents.
Thanks guys !
----- Original Message -----
From: "paul simdars" <psimdars@lisco.com>
To: <pgsql-docs@postgresql.org>
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 9:53 PM
Subject: [DOCS] Tutorial ??
> My feeling is that a user's guide should tell a person how to actually
> use the database system.
> First, I believe you are unable to start the postmaster from the
> information in the tutorial. I believe that is in the RPM readme.
> Second, (and I don't know how to do this) is how to actually get into
> it. I have read that somewhere but can't remember where. I think there
> should be some simple instructions somewhere between 'setting up your
> environment' and 'managing a database'. A tutorial should say " type
> XXX at the prompt" to start postgres for user XXX. I have often found
> that the basic and simple commands for linux programs are the hard ones
> to find. I mean, if you look thru the index of the user's guide, where
> would you look to see how to actually get the thing started? First
> there is the whole SQL language and all its items, and then the perl and
> tcl. Then we get to 'setting up the environment' and you think you are
> getting close. The next items are all about creating databases, etc.
> This seems like the place I would look. When you are actually ready to
> set up a database, you tell the syntax about how to do that, but there
> is no instruction about how to start up or log in.
> Just a suggestion.
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: Tutorial ??
@ 2000-07-05 14:41 paul simdars <psimdars@lisco.com>
parent: Dominic Coallier <dcoallier@shikatronics.com>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: paul simdars @ 2000-07-05 14:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: pgsql-docs
In response to Dominic:
I made the mistake of looking at the tutorial for admin and new users.
And, like I said, the instructions are not in those documents. I think they
should be in those documents. Unfortunately, I didn't read the readme.linux,
mainly because all of the readmes I have read before contain general release
information and what is new, etc. I did not expecte that the
few vital commands you need in there and not in the tutorials.
Even though you were able to do this, that information should be in the
tutorials where
I suggested or they are not really tutorials.
Dominic Coallier wrote:
> Only as a little comment about this message. I'm not pointing anybody...
>
> I am a total newbie with databases but I have been able to install from
> scratch PostgreSQL version 7.0.2 and migrate the database we had on 6.3
> successfully. Everything I needed to know was written in the little readme
> file at src/INSTALL. and since the installation procedures are probably
> different from platform to platforms, I guess they could not really be more
> specific in their manual. Being more specific would need to have
> installation procedures for all platforms ...
>
> So, to the people in charged of the documentations on PostgreSQ:L, I'm
> telling you that somebody with no experience on databases at all was able to
> install PostgreSQL 7.0.2 and migrate the database from 6.3 within an hour
> using those documents.
>
> Thanks guys !
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "paul simdars" <psimdars@lisco.com>
> To: <pgsql-docs@postgresql.org>
> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 9:53 PM
> Subject: [DOCS] Tutorial ??
>
> > My feeling is that a user's guide should tell a person how to actually
> > use the database system.
> > First, I believe you are unable to start the postmaster from the
> > information in the tutorial. I believe that is in the RPM readme.
> > Second, (and I don't know how to do this) is how to actually get into
> > it. I have read that somewhere but can't remember where. I think there
> > should be some simple instructions somewhere between 'setting up your
> > environment' and 'managing a database'. A tutorial should say " type
> > XXX at the prompt" to start postgres for user XXX. I have often found
> > that the basic and simple commands for linux programs are the hard ones
> > to find. I mean, if you look thru the index of the user's guide, where
> > would you look to see how to actually get the thing started? First
> > there is the whole SQL language and all its items, and then the perl and
> > tcl. Then we get to 'setting up the environment' and you think you are
> > getting close. The next items are all about creating databases, etc.
> > This seems like the place I would look. When you are actually ready to
> > set up a database, you tell the syntax about how to do that, but there
> > is no instruction about how to start up or log in.
> > Just a suggestion.
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: Tutorial ??
@ 2000-07-05 15:04 Thomas Lockhart <lockhart@alumni.caltech.edu>
parent: paul simdars <psimdars@lisco.com>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Thomas Lockhart @ 2000-07-05 15:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: paul simdars <psimdars@lisco.com>; +Cc: pgsql-docs
> I made the mistake of looking at the tutorial for admin and new users.
Someone just donated something which may be closer to what you are
asking for. The current tutorial is for SQL concepts, not for "how to
get up and running". The original tutorial should probably stay close to
what it is now, but could have additional details to help get you
started.
Thanks for the suggestions.
- Thomas
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: Tutorial ??
@ 2000-07-06 16:13 Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
parent: paul simdars <psimdars@lisco.com>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Peter Eisentraut @ 2000-07-06 16:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: paul simdars <psimdars@lisco.com>; +Cc: pgsql-docs
paul simdars writes:
> My feeling is that a user's guide should tell a person how to actually
> use the database system.
It could be argued that the user's guide is misnamed. At the end of the
day everybody is a "user". The user's guide as it is essentially
describes the query language environment. (Okay, so "Query language
environment handbook" doesn't sound quite as cool. :)
> First, I believe you are unable to start the postmaster from the
> information in the tutorial.
Everything that has to do with the database server is described in the
administrator's guide. Or at least I'm trying very hard to explain it
there for 7.1. :)
> I believe that is in the RPM readme. Second, (and I don't know how to
> do this) is how to actually get into it. I have read that somewhere
> but can't remember where. I think there should be some simple
> instructions somewhere between 'setting up your environment' and
> 'managing a database'. A tutorial should say " type XXX at the
> prompt" to start postgres for user XXX.
Last time I checked, the tutorial does just that. If the wording is less
than ideal, then please suggest ways to make it better. The tutorial is
the least maintained part of the documentation.
--
Peter Eisentraut Sernanders väg 10:115
peter_e@gmx.net 75262 Uppsala
http://yi.org/peter-e/ Sweden
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Tutorial
@ 2001-03-06 19:55 Wallace Vasques <wallace@lncc.br>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Wallace Vasques @ 2001-03-06 19:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: pgsql-docs
Prezado Amigos,
Necessito de uma tutorial de Postgre SQL em Portugues, desde já agradeço a colaboraços de vcs.
Obrigado e Um abraço
Wallace Vasques
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Tutorial
@ 2001-08-31 15:17 Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Peter Eisentraut @ 2001-08-31 15:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: pgsql-docs
Is anyone doing work on the Tutorial right now? Because I am. Just
letting you know.
--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net http://funkturm.homeip.net/~peter
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Tutorial
@ 2004-07-22 22:21 David Fetter <david@fetter.org>
0 siblings, 3 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: David Fetter @ 2004-07-22 22:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: PG Hackers <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
Kind people,
I am writing a document patch for the tutorials section, and would
like to change the section on inheritance to reflect the fact that it
is not currently being developed, and has known serious bugs in
implementation.
I'm thinking that I should either change that section to a warning
about why this is an unsupported feature or remove it entirely, and
add some other tutorials, details TBD. Some candidates for these
would include:
* JOINs
* set-returning functions
* ARRAYs
* version-dependant (I presume) hacks like ORDER BY ... LIMIT 1 vs MIN/MAX
* the perennial Stuff Dave Has Not Though Of.
What do you all think?
Cheers,
D
--
David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/
phone: +1 510 893 6100 mobile: +1 415 235 3778
Remember to vote!
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: Tutorial
@ 2004-07-22 23:12 Scott Marlowe <smarlowe@qwest.net>
parent: David Fetter <david@fetter.org>
2 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Scott Marlowe @ 2004-07-22 23:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Fetter <david@fetter.org>; +Cc: PG Hackers <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
On Thu, 2004-07-22 at 16:21, David Fetter wrote:
> Kind people,
>
> I am writing a document patch for the tutorials section, and would
> like to change the section on inheritance to reflect the fact that it
> is not currently being developed, and has known serious bugs in
> implementation.
I'd call them deficiencies. If inheritance allowed one to specify a pk
across inherited tables, but occasionally forgot to enforce it or
something like that, that would be a bug.
But I totally agree with adding that there are key features of an
inheritance system that are not implemented, are not being worked on,
and here's what they are... kind of approach.
> I'm thinking that I should either change that section to a warning
> about why this is an unsupported feature or remove it entirely, and
> add some other tutorials, details TBD. Some candidates for these
> would include:
>
> * JOINs
> * set-returning functions
> * ARRAYs
> * version-dependant (I presume) hacks like ORDER BY ... LIMIT 1 vs MIN/MAX
> * the perennial Stuff Dave Has Not Though Of.
Sounds good. I've got some time off, so I'd be happy to write some of
it too. Not a fan of arrays in pgsql so I'm not very familiar with
using them. The version dependent hacks / kludges should probably be in
some generic section on performance tuning queries or something like
it. It may be well to have cross links from one set to the other where
these are concerned, for instance the fact that in earlier versions,
join order was constrained using SQL syntax would be under both joins
and under version dependent kludges / performance tuning and vice versa.
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: Tutorial
@ 2004-07-22 23:22 Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
parent: David Fetter <david@fetter.org>
2 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Peter Eisentraut @ 2004-07-22 23:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Fetter <david@fetter.org>; PG Hackers <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
David Fetter wrote:
> What do you all think?
Please discuss these matters on the pgsql-docs list.
--
Peter Eisentraut
http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: Tutorial
@ 2004-07-22 23:57 elein <elein@varlena.com>
parent: David Fetter <david@fetter.org>
2 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: elein @ 2004-07-22 23:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Fetter <david@fetter.org>; +Cc: PG Hackers <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
I think you are reviving the inheritance wars.
Please do not cut out or dumb down anything that
accurately documents our features.
I think the section should remain, describing
exactly how they work and making it clear exactly
what parts inherited and what is not inherited.
That is where the most confustion lies.
I have a documented use case where the distributed
nature of the indexes increases performance
significantly in certain types of queries. But(!)
I have not re-tested against a recent release
so take that with a grain of salt.
I also have the documentation of how table inheritance
worked in Illustra and a bit on how it worked with
Informix IUS. And can explain some of the thoughts
behind it and the religious wars (offline!).
However, inheritance should not take up a lot of energy that
could be better spent adding sections to JOINs, etc.
I like inhertitance, but believe that the usefulness
of our implementation is limited and so the documentation
should focus on other areas.
elein
On Thu, Jul 22, 2004 at 03:21:04PM -0700, David Fetter wrote:
> Kind people,
>
> I am writing a document patch for the tutorials section, and would
> like to change the section on inheritance to reflect the fact that it
> is not currently being developed, and has known serious bugs in
> implementation.
>
> I'm thinking that I should either change that section to a warning
> about why this is an unsupported feature or remove it entirely, and
> add some other tutorials, details TBD. Some candidates for these
> would include:
>
> * JOINs
> * set-returning functions
> * ARRAYs
> * version-dependant (I presume) hacks like ORDER BY ... LIMIT 1 vs MIN/MAX
> * the perennial Stuff Dave Has Not Though Of.
>
> What do you all think?
>
> Cheers,
> D
> --
> David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/
> phone: +1 510 893 6100 mobile: +1 415 235 3778
>
> Remember to vote!
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
>
> http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: Tutorial
@ 2004-07-23 01:07 Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com>
parent: elein <elein@varlena.com>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Joe Conway @ 2004-07-23 01:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: elein <elein@varlena.com>; +Cc: David Fetter <david@fetter.org>; PG Hackers <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
elein wrote:
> I like inhertitance, but believe that the usefulness
> of our implementation is limited and so the documentation
> should focus on other areas.
+1
Joe
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial
@ 2004-07-23 02:40 Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
parent: Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Robert Treat @ 2004-07-23 02:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com>; elein <elein@varlena.com>; +Cc: David Fetter <david@fetter.org>; pgsql-docs
On Thursday 22 July 2004 21:07, Joe Conway wrote:
> elein wrote:
> > I like inhertitance, but believe that the usefulness
> > of our implementation is limited and so the documentation
> > should focus on other areas.
>
> +1
>
+1/2 (Since I don't like inheritence)
IMHO we ought to try to keep the _tutorial_ free of things that are generally
considered against relational design. If we must keep them, move them into
thier own section and lable them accordingly.
Robert Treat
---
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial
@ 2004-07-23 03:14 Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
parent: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Tom Lane @ 2004-07-23 03:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>; +Cc: Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com>; elein <elein@varlena.com>; David Fetter <david@fetter.org>; pgsql-docs
Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
> +1/2 (Since I don't like inheritence)
> IMHO we ought to try to keep the _tutorial_ free of things that are generally
> considered against relational design.
Where is it written that inheritance is against relational design?
regards, tom lane
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial
@ 2004-07-23 04:31 elein <elein@varlena.com>
parent: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: elein @ 2004-07-23 04:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>; +Cc: Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com>; elein <elein@varlena.com>; David Fetter <david@fetter.org>; pgsql-docs
Postgresql is not simply a relational database. It is an
OBJECT relational database. It was designed to be so from
the start. To pretend it was designed otherwise is to
deny its design and heritage and the original intent of
the the project. c.f. the postgres papers, stonebraker, et.al.
And like tom said, "who said inheritance is not relational."
It need not break codds rules.
--elein
On Thu, Jul 22, 2004 at 10:40:45PM -0400, Robert Treat wrote:
> On Thursday 22 July 2004 21:07, Joe Conway wrote:
> > elein wrote:
> > > I like inhertitance, but believe that the usefulness
> > > of our implementation is limited and so the documentation
> > > should focus on other areas.
> >
> > +1
> >
>
> +1/2 (Since I don't like inheritence)
>
> IMHO we ought to try to keep the _tutorial_ free of things that are generally
> considered against relational design. If we must keep them, move them into
> thier own section and lable them accordingly.
>
> Robert Treat
> ---
> Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial
@ 2004-07-23 07:03 Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
parent: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Peter Eisentraut @ 2004-07-23 07:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>; Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>; +Cc: Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com>; elein <elein@varlena.com>; David Fetter <david@fetter.org>; pgsql-docs
Tom Lane wrote:
> Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
> > +1/2 (Since I don't like inheritence)
> >
> > IMHO we ought to try to keep the _tutorial_ free of things that are
> > generally considered against relational design.
>
> Where is it written that inheritance is against relational design?
I would venture that it is nowhere written that it is part of relational
design. It is, however, unambiguously part of object-relational
design, if that's what we're aiming for.
--
Peter Eisentraut
http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial
@ 2004-07-23 18:51 David Fetter <david@fetter.org>
parent: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: David Fetter @ 2004-07-23 18:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>; +Cc: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>; Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>; Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com>; elein <elein@varlena.com>; pgsql-docs
On Fri, Jul 23, 2004 at 09:03:30AM +0200, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> Tom Lane wrote:
> > Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
> > > +1/2 (Since I don't like inheritence)
> > >
> > > IMHO we ought to try to keep the _tutorial_ free of things that
> > > are generally considered against relational design.
> >
> > Where is it written that inheritance is against relational design?
>
> I would venture that it is nowhere written that it is part of
> relational design. It is, however, unambiguously part of
> object-relational design, if that's what we're aiming for.
I see I have put my foot in it again. Please bear with me here.
Object-relational in general is not broken and is being worked on.
Custom data-types, custom aggregates, etc., etc. are working just
great, and lots of people use them.
What *is* broken is table inheritance, and the docs need to reflect
this.
If the parent table has a foreign key to another table foo, CASCADEing
DELETEs on foo leave ghost entries in the tables with inheritance.
Please find enclosed a repro, which demonstrates the problem on CVS
tip and 7.4.3.
Just an FYI, I first discovered this problem in a payment system.
Cheers,
D
--
David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/
phone: +1 510 893 6100 mobile: +1 415 235 3778
Remember to vote!
BEGIN;
CREATE TABLE foo (
foo_id SERIAL PRIMARY KEY
);
CREATE TABLE parent (
parent_id SERIAL PRIMARY KEY
, foo_id INTEGER NOT NULL REFERENCES foo(foo_id) ON DELETE CASCADE
, parent_1_text TEXT NOT NULL
);
CREATE TABLE child_1 (
child_1_text TEXT NOT NULL
) INHERITS(parent);
CREATE TABLE child_2 (
child_2_text TEXT NOT NULL
) INHERITS(parent);
INSERT INTO foo VALUES(DEFAULT);
INSERT INTO child_1 (foo_id, parent_1_text, child_1_text)
VALUES (currval('public.foo_foo_id_seq'), 'parent text 1', 'child_1 text 1');
INSERT INTO foo VALUES(DEFAULT);
INSERT INTO child_1 (foo_id, parent_1_text, child_1_text)
VALUES (currval('public.foo_foo_id_seq'), 'parent text 2', 'child_1 text 2');
INSERT INTO foo VALUES(DEFAULT);
INSERT INTO child_2 (foo_id, parent_1_text, child_2_text)
VALUES (currval('foo_foo_id_seq'), 'parent text 3', 'child_2 text 1');
DELETE FROM foo WHERE foo_id = 1;
SELECT * FROM parent;
SELECT * FROM child_1;
ROLLBACK;
Attachments:
[text/plain] wtf.sql (949B, ../../20040723185146.GV7751@fetter.org/2-wtf.sql)
download | inline:
BEGIN;
CREATE TABLE foo (
foo_id SERIAL PRIMARY KEY
);
CREATE TABLE parent (
parent_id SERIAL PRIMARY KEY
, foo_id INTEGER NOT NULL REFERENCES foo(foo_id) ON DELETE CASCADE
, parent_1_text TEXT NOT NULL
);
CREATE TABLE child_1 (
child_1_text TEXT NOT NULL
) INHERITS(parent);
CREATE TABLE child_2 (
child_2_text TEXT NOT NULL
) INHERITS(parent);
INSERT INTO foo VALUES(DEFAULT);
INSERT INTO child_1 (foo_id, parent_1_text, child_1_text)
VALUES (currval('public.foo_foo_id_seq'), 'parent text 1', 'child_1 text 1');
INSERT INTO foo VALUES(DEFAULT);
INSERT INTO child_1 (foo_id, parent_1_text, child_1_text)
VALUES (currval('public.foo_foo_id_seq'), 'parent text 2', 'child_1 text 2');
INSERT INTO foo VALUES(DEFAULT);
INSERT INTO child_2 (foo_id, parent_1_text, child_2_text)
VALUES (currval('foo_foo_id_seq'), 'parent text 3', 'child_2 text 1');
DELETE FROM foo WHERE foo_id = 1;
SELECT * FROM parent;
SELECT * FROM child_1;
ROLLBACK;
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial
@ 2004-07-23 19:31 Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
parent: David Fetter <david@fetter.org>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Tom Lane @ 2004-07-23 19:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Fetter <david@fetter.org>; +Cc: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>; Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>; Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com>; elein <elein@varlena.com>; pgsql-docs
David Fetter <david@fetter.org> writes:
> What *is* broken is table inheritance, and the docs need to reflect
> this.
The combination of inheritance with certain other features is broken,
yes, and the docs do reflect that (see the bottom of
http://www.postgresql.org/docs/7.4/static/ddl-inherit.html
for example).
I will grant you that this page is a near duplicate of the tutorial's
discussion of inheritance, which is surely bad --- either they should
be exact duplicates, or one or the other needs rewriting. But I'm not
really going to hold still for the docs on inheritance being rewritten
by someone who considers the entire concept broken. Maybe we can get
elein to do it ;-)
regards, tom lane
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial
@ 2004-07-23 19:34 David Fetter <david@fetter.org>
parent: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: David Fetter @ 2004-07-23 19:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>; +Cc: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>; Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>; Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com>; elein <elein@varlena.com>; pgsql-docs
On Fri, Jul 23, 2004 at 03:31:47PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> David Fetter <david@fetter.org> writes:
> > What *is* broken is table inheritance, and the docs need to reflect
> > this.
>
> The combination of inheritance with certain other features is broken,
> yes, and the docs do reflect that (see the bottom of
> http://www.postgresql.org/docs/7.4/static/ddl-inherit.html
> for example).
>
> I will grant you that this page is a near duplicate of the
> tutorial's discussion of inheritance, which is surely bad --- either
> they should be exact duplicates, or one or the other needs
> rewriting. But I'm not really going to hold still for the docs on
> inheritance being rewritten by someone who considers the entire
> concept broken. Maybe we can get elein to do it ;-)
I don't consider the concept broken. The implementation is, in fact,
broken, and putting that broken piece in the tutorial is, imnsho, a
bad mistake.
Cheers,
D
--
David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/
phone: +1 510 893 6100 mobile: +1 415 235 3778
Remember to vote!
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial
@ 2004-07-23 20:25 elein <elein@varlena.com>
parent: David Fetter <david@fetter.org>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: elein @ 2004-07-23 20:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Fetter <david@fetter.org>; +Cc: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>; Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>; Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>; Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com>; elein <elein@varlena.com>; pgsql-docs
Perhaps after OSCON I can work with fetter on getting
the documentation clarified. OK?
--elein
On Fri, Jul 23, 2004 at 12:34:13PM -0700, David Fetter wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2004 at 03:31:47PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> > David Fetter <david@fetter.org> writes:
> > > What *is* broken is table inheritance, and the docs need to reflect
> > > this.
> >
> > The combination of inheritance with certain other features is broken,
> > yes, and the docs do reflect that (see the bottom of
> > http://www.postgresql.org/docs/7.4/static/ddl-inherit.html
> > for example).
> >
> > I will grant you that this page is a near duplicate of the
> > tutorial's discussion of inheritance, which is surely bad --- either
> > they should be exact duplicates, or one or the other needs
> > rewriting. But I'm not really going to hold still for the docs on
> > inheritance being rewritten by someone who considers the entire
> > concept broken. Maybe we can get elein to do it ;-)
>
> I don't consider the concept broken. The implementation is, in fact,
> broken, and putting that broken piece in the tutorial is, imnsho, a
> bad mistake.
>
> Cheers,
> D
> --
> David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/
> phone: +1 510 893 6100 mobile: +1 415 235 3778
>
> Remember to vote!
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial
@ 2004-07-23 20:28 David Fetter <david@fetter.org>
parent: elein <elein@varlena.com>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: David Fetter @ 2004-07-23 20:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>; Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>; Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>; Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com>; pgsql-docs
On Fri, Jul 23, 2004 at 01:25:56PM -0700, elein wrote:
> Perhaps after OSCON I can work with fetter on getting the
> documentation clarified. OK?
Sounds like fun. There are all kinds of object-relational concepts
other than this broken piece. Which ones are good to highlight in
that tutorial?
Cheers,
D
--
David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/
phone: +1 510 893 6100 mobile: +1 415 235 3778
Remember to vote!
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial
@ 2004-07-23 20:30 Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
parent: David Fetter <david@fetter.org>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: Tom Lane @ 2004-07-23 20:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Fetter <david@fetter.org>; +Cc: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>; Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>; Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com>; elein <elein@varlena.com>; pgsql-docs
David Fetter <david@fetter.org> writes:
> I don't consider the concept broken. The implementation is, in fact,
> broken, and putting that broken piece in the tutorial is, imnsho, a
> bad mistake.
If we're going to remove from the tutorial every feature for which any
aspect is deemed by someone to be broken, the tutorial is liable to
become quite short.
regards, tom lane
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial
@ 2004-07-23 20:40 David Fetter <david@fetter.org>
parent: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: David Fetter @ 2004-07-23 20:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>; +Cc: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>; Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>; Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com>; elein <elein@varlena.com>; pgsql-docs
On Fri, Jul 23, 2004 at 04:30:40PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> David Fetter <david@fetter.org> writes:
> > I don't consider the concept broken. The implementation is, in
> > fact, broken, and putting that broken piece in the tutorial is,
> > imnsho, a bad mistake.
>
> If we're going to remove from the tutorial every feature for which
> any aspect is deemed by someone to be broken, the tutorial is liable
> to become quite short.
Are there other pieces that are broken? As far as I know, the only
documented feature in PostgreSQL that is is table inheritance.
Anyhow, there are lots of ways to highlight the object-relational
features that PostgreSQL provides. Table inheritance just isn't a
good one.
Cheers,
D
--
David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/
phone: +1 510 893 6100 mobile: +1 415 235 3778
Remember to vote!
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial
@ 2004-07-23 20:58 Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
parent: David Fetter <david@fetter.org>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Tom Lane @ 2004-07-23 20:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David Fetter <david@fetter.org>; +Cc: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>; Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>; Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com>; elein <elein@varlena.com>; pgsql-docs
David Fetter <david@fetter.org> writes:
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2004 at 04:30:40PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
>> If we're going to remove from the tutorial every feature for which
>> any aspect is deemed by someone to be broken, the tutorial is liable
>> to become quite short.
> Are there other pieces that are broken?
Between the locale behavior and the trailing-spaces behavior, one could
make the case that the entire set of textual datatypes are broken.
Other examples will occur to your thought if you follow pgsql-bugs.
My point here is that one man's unusably broken feature may be another
man's quite useful feature. Postgres is a work in progress, and
probably always will be. I don't object to pointing out shortcomings,
but removing all mention of a feature because it has some shortcomings
seems not the best way.
regards, tom lane
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial
@ 2004-07-23 21:15 David Fetter <david@fetter.org>
parent: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: David Fetter @ 2004-07-23 21:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>; +Cc: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>; Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>; Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com>; elein <elein@varlena.com>; pgsql-docs
On Fri, Jul 23, 2004 at 04:58:55PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> David Fetter <david@fetter.org> writes:
> > On Fri, Jul 23, 2004 at 04:30:40PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> >> If we're going to remove from the tutorial every feature for
> >> which any aspect is deemed by someone to be broken, the tutorial
> >> is liable to become quite short.
>
> > Are there other pieces that are broken?
>
> Between the locale behavior and the trailing-spaces behavior, one
> could make the case that the entire set of textual datatypes are
> broken. Other examples will occur to your thought if you follow
> pgsql-bugs.
>
> My point here is that one man's unusably broken feature may be
> another man's quite useful feature. Postgres is a work in progress,
> and probably always will be. I don't object to pointing out
> shortcomings, but removing all mention of a feature because it has
> some shortcomings seems not the best way.
Fair enough. How about adding an explanation of the limits of table
inheritance illustrated by that example (or other suitable one)?
Cheers,
D
--
David Fetter david@fetter.org http://fetter.org/
phone: +1 510 893 6100 mobile: +1 415 235 3778
Remember to vote!
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial
@ 2004-07-23 22:21 Chris Browne <cbbrowne@acm.org>
parent: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Chris Browne @ 2004-07-23 22:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: pgsql-docs
tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us (Tom Lane) writes:
> David Fetter <david@fetter.org> writes:
>> On Fri, Jul 23, 2004 at 04:30:40PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
>>> If we're going to remove from the tutorial every feature for which
>>> any aspect is deemed by someone to be broken, the tutorial is liable
>>> to become quite short.
>
>> Are there other pieces that are broken?
>
> Between the locale behavior and the trailing-spaces behavior, one could
> make the case that the entire set of textual datatypes are broken.
> Other examples will occur to your thought if you follow pgsql-bugs.
>
> My point here is that one man's unusably broken feature may be another
> man's quite useful feature. Postgres is a work in progress, and
> probably always will be. I don't object to pointing out shortcomings,
> but removing all mention of a feature because it has some shortcomings
> seems not the best way.
Ah, but suggesting that people devote time to adding documentation for
less controversial features, so that we actually _do_ see some more
documentation, seems a good thing :-).
--
output = reverse("moc.enworbbc" "@" "enworbbc")
http://cbbrowne.com/info/multiplexor.html
Why isn't phonetic spelled the way it sounds?
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* tutorial
@ 2026-08-24 06:54 PG Doc comments form <noreply@postgresql.org>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: PG Doc comments form @ 2026-08-24 06:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org; +Cc: y.saburov@gmail.com
The following documentation comment has been logged on the website:
Page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/18/tutorial-accessdb.html
Description:
In the guide, you provide examples of creating the mydb database and taking
the first steps with it.
This raises the question: why does psql display:
mydb=>
Doesn’t that mean someone created this database and granted access to it?
(Because if it was you)—then you know how to grant access to a database and
create a user—so it turns out you’re an experienced user, but if you really
are: you wouldn’t be reading this section of the manual, because then you’d
be wondering—how did you manage to compile version 18.6 with the gcc
compiler (4.9.2-10) (from 2007)?
mydb=> SELECT version();
version
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PostgreSQL 18.6 on x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, compiled by gcc (Debian 4.9.2-10)
4.9.2, 64-bit
(1 row)
As always, you want to follow the commands step by step from the
documentation—but so many questions remain.
Section 2.1. Introduction provides the following command:
mydb=> \i basics.sql
What do you think the user should see (what should they learn)? What will
remain in the database?
Let’s hope that, over time, navigating the documentation will become easier
and more user-friendly.
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: tutorial
@ 2026-08-27 15:02 David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
parent: PG Doc comments form <noreply@postgresql.org>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 29+ messages in thread
From: David G. Johnston @ 2026-08-27 15:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: y.saburov@gmail.com; pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org
On Thu, Aug 27, 2026 at 10:22 AM PG Doc comments form <
noreply@postgresql.org> wrote:
> The following documentation comment has been logged on the website:
>
> Page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/18/tutorial-accessdb.html
> Description:
>
> In the guide, you provide examples of creating the mydb database and taking
> the first steps with it.
>
> This raises the question: why does psql display:
>
> mydb=>
>
> Doesn’t that mean someone created this database and granted access to it?
>
Yes, the user supposedly did when performing the exercise in chapter 1.3
> What do you think the user should see (what should they learn)? What will
> remain in the database?
>
> Let’s hope that, over time, navigating the documentation will become easier
> and more user-friendly.
>
>
That becomes more likely if people like you who wish to see this better
future suggest patches to make it happen.
Personally, I'd rather remove the tutorial from the core project and let it
be a more accessible community effort via the wiki. The legacy of it being
based upon someone possessing the source code is understandable given the
open source nature of the project but doesn't really fit today's reality.
On that front - if said wiki existed (and there really is no one stopping
it from becoming reality) and was on par in content with the documentation
the argument to simply stop maintaining the tutorial in the docs would be
possible to make.
David J.
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
* Re: tutorial
@ 2026-08-28 04:11 Yaroslav Saburov <y.saburov@gmail.com>
parent: David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 29+ messages in thread
From: Yaroslav Saburov @ 2026-08-28 04:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>; +Cc: pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org
>> Yes, the user supposedly did that while working through the exercise in
Chapter 1.3
mydb=>
How did the user become a regular user rather than the database owner??? (
mydb=# )
чт, 27 авг. 2026 г. в 18:03, David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>:
> On Thu, Aug 27, 2026 at 10:22 AM PG Doc comments form <
> noreply@postgresql.org> wrote:
>
>> The following documentation comment has been logged on the website:
>>
>> Page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/18/tutorial-accessdb.html
>> Description:
>>
>> In the guide, you provide examples of creating the mydb database and
>> taking
>> the first steps with it.
>>
>> This raises the question: why does psql display:
>>
>> mydb=>
>>
>> Doesn’t that mean someone created this database and granted access to it?
>>
>
> Yes, the user supposedly did when performing the exercise in chapter 1.3
>
>
>> What do you think the user should see (what should they learn)? What will
>> remain in the database?
>>
>> Let’s hope that, over time, navigating the documentation will become
>> easier
>> and more user-friendly.
>>
>>
> That becomes more likely if people like you who wish to see this better
> future suggest patches to make it happen.
>
> Personally, I'd rather remove the tutorial from the core project and let
> it be a more accessible community effort via the wiki. The legacy of it
> being based upon someone possessing the source code is understandable given
> the open source nature of the project but doesn't really fit today's
> reality. On that front - if said wiki existed (and there really is no one
> stopping it from becoming reality) and was on par in content with the
> documentation the argument to simply stop maintaining the tutorial in the
> docs would be possible to make.
>
> David J.
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 29+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2026-08-28 04:11 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 29+ messages (download: mbox mbox.gz follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2000-07-01 01:53 Tutorial ?? paul simdars <psimdars@lisco.com>
2000-07-05 13:47 ` Dominic Coallier <dcoallier@shikatronics.com>
2000-07-05 14:41 ` paul simdars <psimdars@lisco.com>
2000-07-05 15:04 ` Thomas Lockhart <lockhart@alumni.caltech.edu>
2000-07-06 16:13 ` Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
2001-03-06 19:55 Tutorial Wallace Vasques <wallace@lncc.br>
2001-08-31 15:17 Tutorial Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
2004-07-22 22:21 Tutorial David Fetter <david@fetter.org>
2004-07-22 23:12 ` Re: Tutorial Scott Marlowe <smarlowe@qwest.net>
2004-07-22 23:22 ` Re: Tutorial Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
2004-07-22 23:57 ` Re: Tutorial elein <elein@varlena.com>
2004-07-23 01:07 ` Re: Tutorial Joe Conway <mail@joeconway.com>
2004-07-23 02:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net>
2004-07-23 03:14 ` Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2004-07-23 07:03 ` Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
2004-07-23 18:51 ` Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial David Fetter <david@fetter.org>
2004-07-23 19:31 ` Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2004-07-23 19:34 ` Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial David Fetter <david@fetter.org>
2004-07-23 20:25 ` Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial elein <elein@varlena.com>
2004-07-23 20:28 ` Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial David Fetter <david@fetter.org>
2004-07-23 20:30 ` Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2004-07-23 20:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial David Fetter <david@fetter.org>
2004-07-23 20:58 ` Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2004-07-23 21:15 ` Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial David Fetter <david@fetter.org>
2004-07-23 22:21 ` Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial Chris Browne <cbbrowne@acm.org>
2004-07-23 04:31 ` Re: [HACKERS] Tutorial elein <elein@varlena.com>
2026-08-24 06:54 tutorial PG Doc comments form <noreply@postgresql.org>
2026-08-27 15:02 ` Re: tutorial David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2026-08-28 04:11 ` Re: tutorial Yaroslav Saburov <y.saburov@gmail.com>
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