From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
To: Sean Chittenden <sean@chittenden.org>
Cc: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
Cc: pgsql-patches@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Are we losing momentum?
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 15:53:10 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <200306021953.h52JrAS23443@candle.pha.pa.us> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20030602193755.GF65470@perrin.int.nxad.com>
Wow, this is a good argument! I must admit I made 'ps -ef' work on BSD
because I was just so used to it on mainframe Unix. There is that
'fingers type without thinking' thing, and I think that is what he is
talking about.
I wonder if we should just support SHOW TABLES or the most common ones.
Maybe emulation is the wrong approach --- maybe we just need 'finger
thinking' shortcuts.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sean Chittenden wrote:
> > > Um, I'm interested in aiding in the conversion of users from MySQL
> > > to PostgreSQL (how ever it happens, I don't really care).
> >
> > Your approach to that reminds me of those
> >
> > alias dir='ls'
> > alias md='mkdir'
> >
> > things that Linux distributors once stuck (or still stick?) in the
> > default profile files, presumably to help conversion from DOS. It's
> > pretty pointless, because Linux is still very different from DOS,
> > and once you want to do something besides showing or changing
> > directories, you will need documentation and training.
>
> Well, interestingly enough, those commands work for getting people in
> the door and to the point that they're able to learn more. The first
> step to any kind of adult education or reeducation is to have concepts
> that the people are familiar with (in this case MySQL) be translated
> into the concepts of the area that they're trying to learn. If you'd
> have read the original patch that I'd posted, you'd see that I'd done
> that by adding a TIP section to the top of the response.
>
> *SNIP*
> SHOW COLUMNS FROM [tblname];
>
> TIP: In psql, "SHOW COLUMNS FROM [tblname]" is natively written as \dt [tblname]
>
> [normal output from \dt tblname]
> *END SNIP*
>
> The point of my patch was to aid the conversion, not to gimp along
> b0rk3d habits from MySQL.
>
> > That is what the MySQL conversion process needs as well, otherwise
> > you're not converting, you're emulating, and that is not a game you
> > can win.
>
> Emulation within reason. dir->ls and md->mkdir worked for a handful
> of people that I've transitioned into the UNIX world from Win32 land,
> in fact, I have one friend from school who's been so successful that
> he's converted from using Win32 on his desktop to using Linux, worked
> with me on a job where we were hacking mod_perl on a site pushing in
> excess of 80Mbps to 25M people a day, but still types dir to this day.
> Not bad for an aero student who graduated with a 4.0 in his major,
> exceedingly bright, adaptive, learns fast, etc. My point is that
> regardless of how bright the person or what the right invocation, aids
> like these help get people in the door and if they like what they see
> once they're through the door, they'll stay. Once people try and use
> PostgreSQL, they stay. When people try MySQL, they're left wanting or
> needing more and are bound by the limits of the software... that's not
> really the case with PostgreSQL.
>
> To get people to try, you play the association or emulation game and
> it works. Ask anyone in adult education and they will say the same.
> The Internet was an "information super highway" because that was
> something that people could grasp, regardless of how flawed it really
> is. Bandwidth is thought of as pipes in various sizes diameters, a
> much better analogy. To geeks, broadcast is explained as the same as
> radio and unicast as satellite TV. To communication majors, TCP is
> descried as a letter that's been chopped up into a thousand numbered
> pieces and sent to the other side of the US via the postal mail.
> Leche is milk to English speakers learning Spanish. One way or
> another, you have to play the game of working within the understanding
> of the target audience, in this case, MySQL users who use a SHOW
> TABLES type syntax.
>
> -sc
>
> --
> Sean Chittenden
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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>
--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
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To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
Cc: pgman@candle.pha.pa.us, sean@chittenden.org, peter_e@gmx.net, pgsql-patches@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Are we losing momentum?
In-Reply-To: <200306021953.h52JrAS23443@candle.pha.pa.us>
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