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Questionable description about character sets 9+ messages / 5 participants [nested] [flat]
* Questionable description about character sets @ 2026-02-11 09:58 Tatsuo Ishii <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread From: Tatsuo Ishii @ 2026-02-11 09:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: [email protected] "23.3.1. Supported Character Sets Table 23.3 shows the character sets available for use in PostgreSQL." https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/multibyte.html#MULTIBYTE-CHARSET-SUPPORTED But the table actually shows encodings (more precisely, "character encoding scheme") (BIG5...EUC_JP... UTF8). I think we need one more column for "character sets" (more precisely, "coded character sets"). Encoding Character set ... BIG5 Big5-2003 : EUC_JP ASCII, JIS X 0208, JIS X 0212, JIS X 0201 : UTF8 Unicode Best regards, -- Tatsuo Ishii SRA OSS K.K. English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en/ Japanese:http://www.sraoss.co.jp ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Questionable description about character sets @ 2026-02-13 06:48 Andreas Karlsson <[email protected]> parent: Tatsuo Ishii <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread From: Andreas Karlsson @ 2026-02-13 06:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Tatsuo Ishii <[email protected]>; [email protected] On 2/11/26 10:58 AM, Tatsuo Ishii wrote: > "23.3.1. Supported Character Sets > Table 23.3 shows the character sets available for use in PostgreSQL." > > https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/multibyte.html#MULTIBYTE-CHARSET-SUPPORTED > > But the table actually shows encodings (more precisely, "character > encoding scheme") (BIG5...EUC_JP... UTF8). I think we need one more > column for "character sets" (more precisely, "coded character sets"). > > Encoding Character set ... > BIG5 Big5-2003 > : > EUC_JP ASCII, JIS X 0208, JIS X 0212, JIS X 0201 > : > UTF8 Unicode Wouldn't that make the table very wide? And for e.g. European character encodings I am not sure it is that useful since most or maybe even all of them are subsets of unicode, it mostly gets interesting for encodings which support characters not in unicode, right? Andreas ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Questionable description about character sets @ 2026-02-14 10:20 Tatsuo Ishii <[email protected]> parent: Andreas Karlsson <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread From: Tatsuo Ishii @ 2026-02-14 10:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: [email protected]; +Cc: [email protected] > Wouldn't that make the table very wide? I don't think it would make the table very wide but a little bit wider. So I think adding the character sets information to "Description" column is better. Some of encodings already have the info. See attached patch. > And for e.g. European > character encodings I am not sure it is that useful since most or > maybe even all of them are subsets of unicode, it mostly gets > interesting for encodings which support characters not in unicode, > right? Choosing UTF8 or not is just one of the use cases. I am thinking about the use case in which user wants to continue to use other encodings (e.g. wants to avoid conversion to UTF8). Example: suppose the user has a legacy system in which EUC_JP is used. The data in the system includes JIS X 0201, JIS X 0208 and JIS X 0212, and he wants to make sure that PostgreSQL supports all those character sets in EUC_JP, because some tools does not support JIS X 0212. Only JIS X 0212 and JIS X 0208 are supported. Currently the info (whether JIS X 0212 is supported or not) does not exist anywhere in our docs. It's only in the source code. I think it's better to have the info in our docs so that user does not need to look into the source code. Best regards, -- Tatsuo Ishii SRA OSS K.K. English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en/ Japanese:http://www.sraoss.co.jp Attachments: [text/x-patch] v1-0001-doc-Enhance-PostgreSQL-Character-Sets-table.patch (3.0K, 2-v1-0001-doc-Enhance-PostgreSQL-Character-Sets-table.patch) download | inline diff: From 98c97f670ce647003ce467a84f81cec0cb463c18 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001 From: Tatsuo Ishii <[email protected]> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2026 16:26:01 +0900 Subject: [PATCH v1] doc: Enhance "PostgreSQL Character Sets" table. Previously some of encoding lacked description of coded character sets being used in the encoding. For most of European encoding this is obvious because there's only or few character sets for encoding, but it's not true for some Asian encodings. For example, EUC_JP encoding corresponds to multiple character sets: Namely, JIS X 0201, JIS X 0208 and JIS X 0212. This commit adds the information to "Description" column. Discussion: https://postgr.es/m/20260211.185847.1679085676298121526.ishii%40postgresql.org --- doc/src/sgml/charset.sgml | 12 ++++++------ 1 file changed, 6 insertions(+), 6 deletions(-) diff --git a/doc/src/sgml/charset.sgml b/doc/src/sgml/charset.sgml index 3aabc798012..32c6280489b 100644 --- a/doc/src/sgml/charset.sgml +++ b/doc/src/sgml/charset.sgml @@ -1831,7 +1831,7 @@ ORDER BY c COLLATE ebcdic; </row> <row> <entry><literal>EUC_CN</literal></entry> - <entry>Extended UNIX Code-CN</entry> + <entry>Extended UNIX Code-CN, GB 2312</entry> <entry>Simplified Chinese</entry> <entry>Yes</entry> <entry>Yes</entry> @@ -1840,7 +1840,7 @@ ORDER BY c COLLATE ebcdic; </row> <row> <entry><literal>EUC_JP</literal></entry> - <entry>Extended UNIX Code-JP</entry> + <entry>Extended UNIX Code-JP, JIS X 0201, JIS X 0208, JIS X 0212</entry> <entry>Japanese</entry> <entry>Yes</entry> <entry>Yes</entry> @@ -1849,7 +1849,7 @@ ORDER BY c COLLATE ebcdic; </row> <row> <entry><literal>EUC_JIS_2004</literal></entry> - <entry>Extended UNIX Code-JP, JIS X 0213</entry> + <entry>Extended UNIX Code-JP, JIS X 0201, JIS X 0213</entry> <entry>Japanese</entry> <entry>Yes</entry> <entry>No</entry> @@ -1858,7 +1858,7 @@ ORDER BY c COLLATE ebcdic; </row> <row> <entry><literal>EUC_KR</literal></entry> - <entry>Extended UNIX Code-KR</entry> + <entry>Extended UNIX Code-KR, KS X 1001</entry> <entry>Korean</entry> <entry>Yes</entry> <entry>Yes</entry> @@ -1867,7 +1867,7 @@ ORDER BY c COLLATE ebcdic; </row> <row> <entry><literal>EUC_TW</literal></entry> - <entry>Extended UNIX Code-TW</entry> + <entry>Extended UNIX Code-TW, CNS 11643</entry> <entry>Traditional Chinese, Taiwanese</entry> <entry>Yes</entry> <entry>Yes</entry> @@ -2056,7 +2056,7 @@ ORDER BY c COLLATE ebcdic; </row> <row> <entry><literal>SJIS</literal></entry> - <entry>Shift JIS</entry> + <entry>Shift JIS, JIS X 0201, JIS X 0208</entry> <entry>Japanese</entry> <entry>No</entry> <entry>No</entry> -- 2.43.0 ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Questionable description about character sets @ 2026-02-16 04:35 Thomas Munro <[email protected]> parent: Tatsuo Ishii <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 2 replies; 9+ messages in thread From: Thomas Munro @ 2026-02-16 04:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Tatsuo Ishii <[email protected]>; +Cc: [email protected]; [email protected] On Sat, Feb 14, 2026 at 11:20 PM Tatsuo Ishii <[email protected]> wrote: > > Wouldn't that make the table very wide? > > I don't think it would make the table very wide but a little bit > wider. So I think adding the character sets information to > "Description" column is better. Some of encodings already have the > info. See attached patch. When I point my browser at file:///home/tmunro/projects/postgresql/build/doc/src/sgml/html/multibyte.html I see these longer descriptions flowing onto multiple lines making the table cells higher, while the published documentation[1] does only a small amount of that, and then the font instead becomes smaller as I make the window narrower. Is there an easy way to see the final website form in a local build? We'd have more free space in the affected rows if we did s/Extended UNIX Code-JP/EUC-JP/. Why is that acronym expanded, while ISO, ECMA, JIS and CP are not? It might be confusing that the style "ISO 8859-1, ECMA 94" is used to list alternative encoding standards that are aligned or equivalent, while here you're listing the encoding and then the underlying character sets in the same way. Would it be better to put them in parentheses? With those two changes we'd have: EUC_JP | EUC-JP (JIS X 0201, JIS X 0208, JIS X 0212) EUC_JIS_2004 | EUC-JP (JIS X 0201, JIS X 0213) If we really wanted to save horizontal space, I suppose we could drop the Alias column and either list aliases in a new table, or give them their own rows with a description "Alias for ...", but that seems a bit over the top. While wondering if some other rows could be more specific, I noticed that for GBK we have "Extended National Standard". I don't understand these things, but from a quick look at Wikipedia[2], I got the idea that if convert_to('€', 'GBK') = '\x80'::bytea (yes) then what we have might actually be the yet-further-extended standard known as "GBK 1.0". Do I have that right? As for BIG5, it seems to be an underspecified mess defying description other than "good luck" :-) Thankfully we won't have to list all the standards that MULE_INTERNAL indirectly covers, as it looks like we've agreed to drop it. And IIRC there was a thread somewhere proposing to drop JOHAB... > > And for e.g. European > > character encodings I am not sure it is that useful since most or > > maybe even all of them are subsets of unicode, it mostly gets > > interesting for encodings which support characters not in unicode, > > right? > > Choosing UTF8 or not is just one of the use cases. > > I am thinking about the use case in which user wants to continue to > use other encodings (e.g. wants to avoid conversion to UTF8). > Example: suppose the user has a legacy system in which EUC_JP is > used. The data in the system includes JIS X 0201, JIS X 0208 and JIS X > 0212, and he wants to make sure that PostgreSQL supports all those > character sets in EUC_JP, because some tools does not support JIS X > 0212. Only JIS X 0212 and JIS X 0208 are supported. Currently the info > (whether JIS X 0212 is supported or not) does not exist anywhere in > our docs. It's only in the source code. I think it's better to have > the info in our docs so that user does not need to look into the > source code. Makes sense to me. The underlying character sets must be very important to understand, especially if implementations vary on these points. We should give the information. . o O ( I wonder if anyone has ever tried to make an "XTF-8-JA" encoding just like UTF-8 but with ~1900 high-frequency Japanese codepoints swapped into the 2-byte range U+0080-07ff where Greek, Hebrew, Arabic and others won the encoding lottery. UTF-16 is apparently sometimes preferred to save space in other RDBMSs that can do it, but I suppose you could achieve the same size most of the time with a scheme like that. The other encodings have the desired size, but non-universal character sets. A similar thought for the languages of India, but with the frequency fuzziness factor removed: you could surely map a dozen tiny non-ideographic scripts into that range to save a byte per character... Hindi, Tamil etc didn't get a very good deal with UTF-8. Don't worry, I'm not suggesting that PostgreSQL has any business inventings its own hair-brained encodings, I'm just wondering out loud if that is a kind of thing that exists somewhere out there... ) [1] https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/multibyte.html [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBK_(character_encoding) ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Questionable description about character sets @ 2026-02-16 05:07 Nico Williams <[email protected]> parent: Thomas Munro <[email protected]> 1 sibling, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread From: Nico Williams @ 2026-02-16 05:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Thomas Munro <[email protected]>; +Cc: Tatsuo Ishii <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected] On Mon, Feb 16, 2026 at 05:35:41PM +1300, Thomas Munro wrote: > [...]. UTF-16 is > apparently sometimes preferred to save space in other RDBMSs that can > do it, but I suppose you could achieve the same size most of the time > with a scheme like that. [...] [Off-topic] I think UTF-16 yielding smaller encodings is a truism. It really depends on what language the text is mostly written in, but mostly it's a truism that's not true. Anyways, UTF-16 has to go away, and the sooner the better. Nico -- ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Questionable description about character sets @ 2026-02-17 02:38 Thomas Munro <[email protected]> parent: Nico Williams <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread From: Thomas Munro @ 2026-02-17 02:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nico Williams <[email protected]>; +Cc: Tatsuo Ishii <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected] On Mon, Feb 16, 2026 at 6:07 PM Nico Williams <[email protected]> wrote: > On Mon, Feb 16, 2026 at 05:35:41PM +1300, Thomas Munro wrote: > > [...]. UTF-16 is > > apparently sometimes preferred to save space in other RDBMSs that can > > do it, but I suppose you could achieve the same size most of the time > > with a scheme like that. [...] > > [Off-topic] I think UTF-16 yielding smaller encodings is a truism. It > really depends on what language the text is mostly written in, but > mostly it's a truism that's not true. Anyways, UTF-16 has to go away, > and the sooner the better. But when it's true for your language and that's what your database holds, then it's true all the time, and it's not just outliers, we're talking about nearly all of Asia's languages. That's ... a lot of NAND gates being wasted due to arbitrary choices made probably before UTF-8 even existed. I do agree with you that UTF-16 has turned out to be an odd beast, though, not big enough but also too big. Maybe it's only just right for CJK (or CJ?). I don't see much chance at all of anyone retro-fitting UTF-16 into PostgreSQL anyway, so I wouldn't worry about that. I could more easily see us figuring out how to drop the requirement for high bits in multi-byte sequence tails so that GB18030 could be used to store two-byte Chinese (while also retaining full access to all of Unicode as it does), and I was basically wondering out loud if Japan might be hiding something like that somewhere and imagining what it might look like. ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Questionable description about character sets @ 2026-04-15 09:26 Thomas Munro <[email protected]> parent: Thomas Munro <[email protected]> 1 sibling, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread From: Thomas Munro @ 2026-04-15 09:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Tatsuo Ishii <[email protected]>; +Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]; Henson Choi <[email protected]> On Mon, Feb 16, 2026 at 5:35 PM Thomas Munro <[email protected]> wrote: > On Sat, Feb 14, 2026 at 11:20 PM Tatsuo Ishii <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Wouldn't that make the table very wide? > > > > I don't think it would make the table very wide but a little bit > > wider. So I think adding the character sets information to > > "Description" column is better. Some of encodings already have the > > info. See attached patch. If we wanted to follow the SQL standard's terminology, I think we'd call this the "character repertoire". In the standard, a "character set" is the database object representing a repertoire and an encoding of it, or its identifier. But if we put it in the description column, we wouldn't have to name it. Researching the standard led me to src/backend/catalog/information_schema.sql[1]. It currently reports the encoding name as the character set and the repertoire, except s/UTF8/UCS/ for the repertoire. That's the same information as you want to document here. For the character set (in the SQL standard sense), the current view definition seems reasonable given that we don't support CREATE CHARACTER SET or CHARACTER SET generally, and for the character repertoire, the s/UTF8/UCS/ translation makes sense, but you chose to call it "Unicode". Shouldn't those agree? If GB18030 were a valid server encoding, it would surely have to report UCS, like UTF8, since it is also a "Unicode transformation format"[2] (its purpose is to be backwards compatible with legacy 2-byte-per-common-Chinese-character formats while also covering all of Unicode 100% systematically, ie booting stuff they don't often encode into the 3- and 4-byte zone to make room for efficient encoding of stuff they do often encode). So I think that means your new documentation should say UCS (or UNICODE) for that one too. I don't know how other encodings should spell their repertoire though... (CC Henson Choi who might be interested in this topic especially WRT Korean.) [1] https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/infoschema-character-sets.html [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GB_18030 ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Questionable description about character sets @ 2026-04-17 01:28 Tatsuo Ishii <[email protected]> parent: Thomas Munro <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread From: Tatsuo Ishii @ 2026-04-17 01:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: [email protected]; +Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] > If we wanted to follow the SQL standard's terminology, I think we'd > call this the "character repertoire". Calling it "character repertoire" works for me. Fortunately the meaning of "character repertoire" in the SQL standard and in other standard (ISO/IEC 2022 or 10646) looks same. > In the standard, a "character > set" is the database object representing a repertoire and an encoding > of it, or its identifier. Yes. Unlike ISO/IEC 2022 or 10646, the SQL standard has no clear distinction between character set (in the sense of ISO/IEC 10646) and encoding. (To me this is quite confusing.) > But if we put it in the description column, > we wouldn't have to name it. Why? > Researching the standard led me to > src/backend/catalog/information_schema.sql[1]. It currently reports > the encoding name as the character set and the repertoire, except > s/UTF8/UCS/ for the repertoire. That's the same information as you > want to document here. For the character set (in the SQL standard > sense), the current view definition seems reasonable given that we > don't support CREATE CHARACTER SET or CHARACTER SET generally, Why? For example, Shouldn't EUC_JP have JIS X 0201, JIS X 0208 and JIS X 0212 as its character repertoire? > and for > the character repertoire, the s/UTF8/UCS/ translation makes sense, but > you chose to call it "Unicode". Shouldn't those agree? I think "UCS" is not a repertoire, but a coded character set. "Unicode" or "Unicode repertoire" [1] is more appropreate, I think. [1] https://www.unicode.org/reports/tr17/tr17-3.html > If GB18030 were a valid server encoding, it would surely have to > report UCS, like UTF8, since it is also a "Unicode transformation > format"[2] (its purpose is to be backwards compatible with legacy > 2-byte-per-common-Chinese-character formats while also covering all of > Unicode 100% systematically, ie booting stuff they don't often encode > into the 3- and 4-byte zone to make room for efficient encoding of > stuff they do often encode). So I think that means your new > documentation should say UCS (or UNICODE) for that one too. Not sure. I heard that the latest GB18030 (GB18030-2022, at this point) does not contain some newer Unicode characters. > I don't > know how other encodings should spell their repertoire though... Need research for me too. Regards, -- Tatsuo Ishii SRA OSS K.K. English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en/ Japanese:http://www.sraoss.co.jp ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Questionable description about character sets @ 2026-04-22 01:34 Henson Choi <[email protected]> parent: Tatsuo Ishii <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread From: Henson Choi @ 2026-04-22 01:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Tatsuo Ishii <[email protected]>; +Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] Thanks Thomas for looping me in, and thanks Tatsuo-san for driving this. Before getting to the Korean Description-column wording itself, the main thing I want to surface from my audit is two Bytes/Char corrections on this very table -- they turn out to be the most concrete thing I can offer. * JOHAB row Bytes/Char = 1-3. This is wrong. I posted a separate patch for bug #19354 [1] that rewrites pg_johab_mblen() / pg_johab_verifychar() to follow KS X 1001:2004 Annex 3 Table 1 directly, instead of borrowing from pg_euc_mblen() / IS_EUC_RANGE_VALID(). (JOHAB's Hangul lead-byte range 0x84-0xD3 spans 0x8E and 0x8F, which EUC reserves as SS2/SS3, so it was never an EUC profile to begin with.) That patch also corrects pg_wchar_table's maxmblen for JOHAB from 3 to 2 and the Bytes/Char column of this same Table 23.3 from "1-3" to "1-2". * EUC_KR row Bytes/Char = 1-3. Overstated in the same way, but with a twist: the validator is already correct. EUC-KR per KS X 2901 / RFC 1557 designates only G0 (ASCII) and G1 (KS X 1001), so the maximum valid sequence length is 2. pg_euckr_verifychar() already rejects 0x8E and 0x8F via IS_EUC_RANGE_VALID (0xA1-0xFE), so no 3-byte sequence is ever accepted in practice. The stale "3" only survives in pg_wchar_table[PG_EUC_KR].maxmblen and in this docs cell, as a leftover from pg_euckr_mblen() delegating to the shared pg_euc_mblen(). Correcting both to 2 is a pure cleanup with no behavior change and no backward-compatibility impact. If the JOHAB fix lands first, that row's Bytes/Char can inherit the corrected value. For EUC_KR, I could go either way and would rather let you pick the direction: fold the maxmblen/docs cleanup into v1 (since the change is behavior-free), or keep it out and let me post it as its own small patch in a separate thread (since it touches src/common/wchar.c as well as the docs, while your v1 is docs-only). I'm happy to prepare it either way. As for the Korean Description-column wording itself, I'd rather offer input than a finished proposal -- I'm honestly not confident about the right naming convention, especially for UHC. For what it's worth: * EUC_KR's coded character set is just KS X 1001 (plus ASCII); there is no KS equivalent of JIS X 0212. * JOHAB shares the same character repertoire as EUC_KR -- KS X 1001 + ASCII -- and simply arranges those characters into bytes via the combinational code in Annex 3. So if the column is about coded character sets rather than encodings, JOHAB's entry would arguably read identically to EUC_KR's. That's actually a clean illustration of the encoding-vs-character-set distinction you raised in the original post. * UHC / CP949 is the Microsoft superset of EUC-KR that adds the 11172 precomposed Hangul syllables beyond KS X 1001, but those extra syllables aren't standardized as a separately-named coded character set as far as I know -- "CP949" tends to refer to the encoding. I don't have a confident answer for the wording; if you have a preferred convention I'll defer to it. (Structural note in passing: despite the "superset of EUC-KR" framing, UHC is not itself an EUC profile. To fit the extra syllables, it extends the lead-byte range down to 0x81, which necessarily swallows 0x8E and 0x8F -- the bytes EUC reserves as SS2 and SS3. So by extending EUC-KR, CP949 steps outside the EUC family. Mentioning this only because it mirrors the JOHAB situation.) One more observation, and apologies in advance for wandering a bit beyond the scope of this thread: while auditing those code paths I noticed that pg_uhc_verifychar() appears quite loose on trail bytes (it only rejects \0), while CP949's actual trail-byte range is somewhat narrower. Tightening this would be a real behavior change -- existing databases may contain byte sequences that are currently accepted but would be rejected under a stricter verifier -- so it needs its own discussion. I'll raise that in its own separate thread regardless of how the EUC_KR question above is resolved. (UHC's 1-2 / maxmblen = 2 are already correct, so this is purely a verifier-strictness question, not a table-cell question.) So in summary: the UHC verifier question will go to its own separate thread from my side (behavior change, needs consensus), and the EUC_KR cleanup will go to either v1 or a separate thread depending on your call above. Neither should block your v1 patch; the only pieces that touch the same table cells are the two Bytes/Char corrections, both handled either via [1] or via the EUC_KR cleanup, wherever it ends up. [1] https://postgr.es/m/[email protected] Regards, Henson Choi ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 9+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2026-04-22 01:34 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 9+ messages (download: mbox mbox.gz follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2026-02-11 09:58 Questionable description about character sets Tatsuo Ishii <[email protected]> 2026-02-13 06:48 ` Andreas Karlsson <[email protected]> 2026-02-14 10:20 ` Tatsuo Ishii <[email protected]> 2026-02-16 04:35 ` Thomas Munro <[email protected]> 2026-02-16 05:07 ` Nico Williams <[email protected]> 2026-02-17 02:38 ` Thomas Munro <[email protected]> 2026-04-15 09:26 ` Thomas Munro <[email protected]> 2026-04-17 01:28 ` Tatsuo Ishii <[email protected]> 2026-04-22 01:34 ` Henson Choi <[email protected]>
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