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* Re: Bouncing replies [was: SQL standards in Mysql]
@ 2008-02-25 21:08 Dean Gibson (DB Administrator) <postgresql@ultimeth.com>
0 siblings, 3 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Dean Gibson (DB Administrator) @ 2008-02-25 21:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: pgsql-sql
On 2008-02-22 21:34, Scott Marlowe wrote:
> Bouncing messages from a public list is kinda rude.
>
No more so, than sending two copies of your reply to me, because you
don't go up to your mailer's "To:" line and manually delete the extra
address (as I do on EVERY reply I send to this list).
In fact, if you do that, you won't get the bounce. I do it out of
consideration for others: since _I_ would prefer to not receive two
copies of replies, I assume that _others_ prefer the same. I don't whine
about it; I just do it.
So, in return for that consideration, I get your reply. How did getting
the bounce hurt you or your computer, or make any extra work for you,
more than I would have to do when I get a duplicate message????
Perhaps I've been working with computers too long. I've been PAID as a
full-time software developer for the past 40 years (45 if you count
part-time employment in college), and I'm AMAZED at the amount of
intolerance I see on the Internet with respect to eMails. Some people
whine because the reply is at the top of the message rather than at the
bottom. There are perfectly good reasons for replying at the top OR at
the bottom, depending upon the circumstances. Other people whine
because the sender does not wrap his/her eMail at 76 columns, or because
the eMail is ALL CAPS, or some other imagined slight. Being an
ADAPTABLE human being, rather than UPSET people who aren't similarly
inclined, I simply ADAPT to the environment in most cases.
In this particular case:
>
> Look, if you're going to send email to this list from an address that doesn't accept email from anything but this list, and since this list by default is a "reply to all" list (i.e. people hit reply to all) the LEAST you can do is reconfigure your Mail client to change the reply to field to point to whatever list it is you are sending to.
A good idea, but I use this eMail address to reply to multiple pgsql-xxx
lists. That would require a separate sender address for each list, but
I can do that if I'm really hurting other people. It just means that I
will have to delete the duplicate replies, rather than have to hear
about the problems (which have yet to be identified) the bounces causes
other people. I'll consider it.
> Or have the decency to program your MTA to just throw those messages away.
>
That's a universally discredited idea among mail administrators: You
either reject unwanted mail _during_the_SMTP_dialog_, or you forward it
on to the recipient. The former is strongly preferred for dealing with
spam (which is why I bounce non-list replies), to avoid the bandwidth,
storage, and other issues.
Now, for anyone who can't deal with the above, either:
1. don't reply to my posts;
2. edit the "To:" line in your replies to me; or
3. send me your eMail address and I will manually whitelist you (note
that the whitelisting will disappear if some spammer uses your eMail
address to circumvent the bounces). In fact, I'm surprised that
spammers don't already do that using one of the administrator accounts
here. My eMail address here has been one of the largest targets for the
spam my SMTP server rejects over the past few years, and I haven't even
been very active here.
Sincerely, Dean
--
Mail to my list address MUST be sent via the mailing list.
All other mail to my list address will bounce.
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Bouncing replies [was: SQL standards in Mysql]
@ 2008-02-25 21:29 Dave Page <dpage@postgresql.org>
parent: Dean Gibson (DB Administrator) <postgresql@ultimeth.com>
2 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Dave Page @ 2008-02-25 21:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dean Gibson (DB Administrator) <postgresql@ultimeth.com>; +Cc: pgsql-sql
On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 9:08 PM, Dean Gibson (DB Administrator)
<postgresql@ultimeth.com> wrote:
>
> On 2008-02-22 21:34, Scott Marlowe wrote:
>
>
> Bouncing messages from a public list is kinda rude.
>
> No more so, than sending two copies of your reply to me, because you don't
> go up to your mailer's "To:" line and manually delete the extra address (as
> I do on EVERY reply I send to this list).
It is considered polite to follow the customs of the groups in which
one participates. For example, if you meet with Japanese people as
part of your work you should bow whilst exchanging business cards,
take care to read the card you are given, and not place it in the back
pocket of your trousers.
In this group we use the mj2 mailing list manager which by default
will not send you a direct copy of any message which also has your
email address explicitly listed. We prefer to use reply-all when
responding to people, and that has become the custom here. It would be
appreciated if you respected that custom during your time with us.
Regards, Dave
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Bouncing replies [was: SQL standards in Mysql]
@ 2008-02-25 21:33 Colin Wetherbee <cww@denterprises.org>
parent: Dean Gibson (DB Administrator) <postgresql@ultimeth.com>
2 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Colin Wetherbee @ 2008-02-25 21:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: pgsql-sql
Dean Gibson (DB Administrator) wrote:
> On 2008-02-22 21:34, Scott Marlowe wrote:
>
>> Bouncing messages from a public list is kinda rude.
>>
> No more so, than sending two copies of your reply to me, because you
> don't go up to your mailer's "To:" line and manually delete the extra
> address (as I do on EVERY reply I send to this list).
This is twice in as many days my old iLamp mail machine has been set
aflame by the fires of a heated discussion about how a mailing list's
reply-to is set. It gets hot enough just running Thunderbird.
If you're going to continue this off-topic discussion, might I suggest
taking it off-list?
Interestingly, yesterday's flame-war took place because someone was
adamant about just the opposite of your argument.
Colin
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Bouncing replies [was: SQL standards in Mysql]
@ 2008-02-26 00:42 Scott Marlowe <scott.marlowe@gmail.com>
parent: Dave Page <dpage@postgresql.org>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Scott Marlowe @ 2008-02-26 00:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dave Page <dpage@postgresql.org>; +Cc: pgsql-sql
On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 3:29 PM, Dave Page <dpage@postgresql.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 9:08 PM, Dean Gibson (DB Administrator)
> <postgresql@ultimeth.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 2008-02-22 21:34, Scott Marlowe wrote:
> >
> > Bouncing messages from a public list is kinda rude.
> >
> > No more so, than sending two copies of your reply to me, because you don't
> > go up to your mailer's "To:" line and manually delete the extra address (as
> > I do on EVERY reply I send to this list).
This is to Dean.
I'm not editing my to: line on every single post. I'll hit reply to
all. This list is designed to have it work that way, so that if the
mailing list is running slow, the people participating in the
discussion can keep up with it and if you're having problems now you
don't have to wait 8 hours for the mailing list machine to get
restarted or whatever it takes to make it behave sometimes. Also,
every email client I've used in the last 5 years is smart enough to
take the same message from two sources (i.e. the list / and the
sender) and notice they're the same and NOT show them twice. It's not
rocket science, and it's not uncommon, and it's not hard. If your
client doesn't have that ability, I'd have to wonder what you're
using. I think even pine can do this.
It's just as easy to have your email program simply take anything that
comes into it and toss it into the garbage and ignore it than to send
a bounce message that uses up resources and bandwidth saying you don't
want email from the people on the list, just the list. Especially
since the way THIS list works, by generally accepted standards, is to
hit reply to all.
You'll notice I didn't answer you earlier. That's because you (Dean)
have been put on my ignore list so I don't accidentally reply to you
when you post, since it's the simplest and easiest way to stop getting
bounce messages from you. Note this means I will miss your response,
so don't bother sending one from your current email address to me, or
to me through the list. You completely ignored my first post about
this, and I really don't feel like having a complex involved
conversation on basic email courtesy. Just one simple change in your
software and voila it drops the dups instead of sending bounce
messages.
Good day.
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Bouncing replies [was: SQL standards in Mysql]
@ 2008-02-26 03:26 Scott Marlowe <scott.marlowe@gmail.com>
parent: Scott Marlowe <scott.marlowe@gmail.com>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Scott Marlowe @ 2008-02-26 03:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: pgsql-sql; +Cc: Dave Page <dpage@postgresql.org>; Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 9:01 PM, Dean K. Gibson <random4@mailpen.com> wrote:
> You are missing the point of why I do this. If it weren't for spammers
No, I'm not. You're tilting at windmills. If you post to a public
list, you will get spammed on that email address and there's not a lot
you can do about that.
What you can do is use basic spam detection and deletion software,
like spam assassin, to sort the wheat from the chaff.
I use gmail to read the lists. It's not perfect by any means. But I
see none of the thousands of spam messages that hit my inbox everyday.
We had spam assassin the last place I worked and it was nearly 100%
correct on getting spam, and it's fairly easy to set it up to be able
to learn spam from you telling it any that slipped through.
P.s. I've been using the internet since the mid 80s, and programming
since the late 70s too. I remember a spam free internet, a spam free
usenet even. Wish it could come back, but know that it won't.
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Bouncing replies [was: SQL standards in Mysql]
@ 2008-02-26 03:36 D'Arcy J.M. Cain <darcy@druid.net>
parent: Scott Marlowe <scott.marlowe@gmail.com>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: D'Arcy J.M. Cain @ 2008-02-26 03:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Scott Marlowe <scott.marlowe@gmail.com>; +Cc: pgsql-sql
On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 21:26:50 -0600
"Scott Marlowe" <scott.marlowe@gmail.com> wrote:
> P.s. I've been using the internet since the mid 80s, and programming
> since the late 70s too. I remember a spam free internet, a spam free
> usenet even. Wish it could come back, but know that it won't.
Damn that Canter and Siegel!
--
D'Arcy J.M. Cain <darcy@druid.net> | Democracy is three wolves
http://www.druid.net/darcy/ | and a sheep voting on
+1 416 425 1212 (DoD#0082) (eNTP) | what's for dinner.
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Bouncing replies [was: SQL standards in Mysql]
@ 2008-03-02 21:32 Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
parent: Dean Gibson (DB Administrator) <postgresql@ultimeth.com>
2 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Bruce Momjian @ 2008-03-02 21:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dean Gibson (DB Administrator) <postgresql@ultimeth.com>; +Cc: pgsql-sql
Dean Gibson (DB Administrator) wrote:
> On 2008-02-22 21:34, Scott Marlowe wrote:
>
> > Bouncing messages from a public list is kinda rude.
> >
> No more so, than sending two copies of your reply to me, because you
> don't go up to your mailer's "To:" line and manually delete the extra
> address (as I do on EVERY reply I send to this list).
>
> In fact, if you do that, you won't get the bounce. I do it out of
> consideration for others: since _I_ would prefer to not receive two
> copies of replies, I assume that _others_ prefer the same. I don't whine
> about it; I just do it.
>
> So, in return for that consideration, I get your reply. How did getting
> the bounce hurt you or your computer, or make any extra work for you,
> more than I would have to do when I get a duplicate message????
I am surprised no one suggested majordomo's 'eliminatecc' option:
http://mail.postgresql.org/mj/mj_wwwusr?user=&passw=&list=GLOBAL&func=help&extra=set
Avoid courtesy copies
The eliminatecc setting controls courtesy copy elimination. If
this setting is enabled, and your address appears in the To: or
Cc: headers of a posted message, Majordomo will not send an
additional copy to you. This helps to cut down on many of those
annoying duplicates that are often received, but it deprives you
of the additional processing that Majordomo does on a message
(subject prefixes, additional headers, etc.).
eliminatecc - turns CC elimination on
noeliminatecc - turns it off
This does what the requestor wants, namely not send email from the list
if they are already receiving the email as a reply. (It is spam removal
or elimination of duplicates that is the problem?)
> Perhaps I've been working with computers too long. I've been PAID as a
> full-time software developer for the past 40 years (45 if you count
> part-time employment in college), and I'm AMAZED at the amount of
> intolerance I see on the Internet with respect to eMails. Some people
> whine because the reply is at the top of the message rather than at the
> bottom. There are perfectly good reasons for replying at the top OR at
> the bottom, depending upon the circumstances. Other people whine
> because the sender does not wrap his/her eMail at 76 columns, or because
> the eMail is ALL CAPS, or some other imagined slight. Being an
> ADAPTABLE human being, rather than UPSET people who aren't similarly
> inclined, I simply ADAPT to the environment in most cases.
I think a lot of the finickiness comes from the fact that emails often
go to thousands of people, which does require more work from the email
author. It is the cost of being able to communicate with that many
people at once.
> Mail to my list address MUST be sent via the mailing list.
> All other mail to my list address will bounce.
Let me add that just trashing all email from you is an option many might
choose.
You seem more concerned with making things easy for yourself and not
adequately considering the thousands of people who are you communicating
with, and replying to your emails trying to help you.
--
Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com
+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 7+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2008-03-02 21:32 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 7+ messages (download: mbox mbox.gz follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2008-02-25 21:08 Re: Bouncing replies [was: SQL standards in Mysql] Dean Gibson (DB Administrator) <postgresql@ultimeth.com>
2008-02-25 21:29 ` Dave Page <dpage@postgresql.org>
2008-02-26 00:42 ` Scott Marlowe <scott.marlowe@gmail.com>
2008-02-26 03:26 ` Scott Marlowe <scott.marlowe@gmail.com>
2008-02-26 03:36 ` D'Arcy J.M. Cain <darcy@druid.net>
2008-02-25 21:33 ` Colin Wetherbee <cww@denterprises.org>
2008-03-02 21:32 ` Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
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