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* conventions
@ 2021-07-07 16:30 rir <rirans@comcast.net>
2021-07-07 19:13 ` Re: conventions Euler Taveira <euler@eulerto.com>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: rir @ 2021-07-07 16:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Pg Docs <pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org>
The conventions page is weak. Here is a proposed start for
change. Seeing SQL as an early language, I have tried to use something
like plain English. Here "early" could describe a mail merge user
wandering into programming SQL after seeing some simple examples.
I like the idea of accessibility but I may have been overly influenced
by the tone of the existing page. I tried to express the idea of
operators and that "repeaters" could/should be viewed as tokens.
I am not sure if parenthetical groups are degenerate in their
behavior pertaining to their contents. It seems they take the op's
on the outside.
Thanks,
rob
Conventions
The conventions used in the synopses of commands vary with the language
being presented.
SQL
The conventions for SQL synopses consist of placeholders, groups,
repeaters and the alternator.
Placeholders are bold, italicized names for SQL code. Often the
placeholder's definition or syntax is is introduced and presented
later in the synopsis. When not defined, there are three possible
reasons:
1. The placeholder is self-evident, i.e. "name" being more helpful
in giving the intent of the code than "sql_identifier".
2. The placeholder is a common SQL construct explained elsewhere,
i.e. "expression".
3. The placeholder is arcane or requires knowledge beyond SQL;
the commonest cases involve creating or altering C language
code.
In the above cases, the page's explanatory text should help.
Square brackets ([ and ]) create optional groups.
Pointy braces ({ and }) create required groups. To date, only alternative
lists exist inside braces.
Parentheses (( and )) are to be taken literally as part of the SQL code,
but also group parts.
The bar or pipe (|) is the alternator, it separates lists of alternatives
which require one choice.
The ellipsis (...) is the basic repeater, all repeaters indicate some
repetition of the prior group, symbol or word. The basic repeater
requires at least one repetition.
The ellipsis in square brackets ([ ... ]) indicates an optional
repetition.
The other repeaters are special usages of square brackets to create
repeaters that contain a separator that goes between the repetitions.
These are ([, ...]), ([ OR ...]) and ([ AND ...]).
PL/pgSQL
XXX See SQL above.
PL/Tcl
...
PL/Perl
...
PL/Python
...
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: conventions
2021-07-07 16:30 conventions rir <rirans@comcast.net>
@ 2021-07-07 19:13 ` Euler Taveira <euler@eulerto.com>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Euler Taveira @ 2021-07-07 19:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: rir <rirans@comcast.net>; Pg Docs <pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org>
On Wed, Jul 7, 2021, at 1:30 PM, rir wrote:
>
> The conventions page is weak. Here is a proposed start for
> change. Seeing SQL as an early language, I have tried to use something
> like plain English. Here "early" could describe a mail merge user
> wandering into programming SQL after seeing some simple examples.
Hi Rob,
Unless someone translates your suggestion into a patch, you could probably do
it and submit a patch. If you are a first time contributor, I suggest that you
read Submitting a patch [1]. It is a detailed document that describes the
development workflow.
Talking about this patch, edit doc/src/sgml/notation.sgml, run configure
script, follow the steps described in Building the Documentation section [2]
and send a 'git diff' to this list. You might need some tools [3] to build the
documentation.
[1] https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Submitting_a_Patch
[2] https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/docguide-build.html
[3] https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/docguide-toolsets.html
--
Euler Taveira
EDB https://www.enterprisedb.com/
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Conventions
@ 2022-01-25 03:31 PG Doc comments form <noreply@postgresql.org>
2022-01-25 20:24 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: PG Doc comments form @ 2022-01-25 03:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org; +Cc: davs2rt@gmail.com
The following documentation comment has been logged on the website:
Page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/12/notation.html
Description:
In section 3, Conventions, it would be helpful to point out that
parentheses, when used in the command descriptions, are to be interpreted as
literal required elements. As a newbie, the combination of {}, [], () was
already difficult to parse in command descriptions. Worse when the
Conventions element doesn't describe parentheses use in the definitions.
Here's a simple example where the parens are easy to miss, and it's not
otherwise clear what they do:
CREATE [ [ GLOBAL | LOCAL ] { TEMPORARY | TEMP } | UNLOGGED ] TABLE [ IF NOT
EXISTS ] table_name ( [
{ column_name data_type [ COLLATE collation ] [ column_constraint [ ... ]
]
| table_constraint
| LIKE source_table [ like_option ... ] }
[, ... ]
] )
[ INHERITS ( parent_table [, ... ] ) ]
[ PARTITION BY { RANGE | LIST | HASH } ( { column_name | ( expression ) } [
COLLATE collation ] [ opclass ] [, ... ] ) ]
[ USING method ]
[ WITH ( storage_parameter [= value] [, ... ] ) | WITHOUT OIDS ]
[ ON COMMIT { PRESERVE ROWS | DELETE ROWS | DROP } ]
[ TABLESPACE tablespace_name ]
I think a single sentence, like "parens () are required elements in the
syntax" would suffice.
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Conventions
2022-01-25 03:31 Conventions PG Doc comments form <noreply@postgresql.org>
@ 2022-01-25 20:24 ` Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-25 22:20 ` Re: Conventions David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Bruce Momjian @ 2022-01-25 20:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: davs2rt@gmail.com; pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org
On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 03:31:03AM +0000, PG Doc comments form wrote:
> The following documentation comment has been logged on the website:
>
> Page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/12/notation.html
> Description:
>
> In section 3, Conventions, it would be helpful to point out that
> parentheses, when used in the command descriptions, are to be interpreted as
> literal required elements. As a newbie, the combination of {}, [], () was
> already difficult to parse in command descriptions. Worse when the
> Conventions element doesn't describe parentheses use in the definitions.
> Here's a simple example where the parens are easy to miss, and it's not
> otherwise clear what they do:
>
> CREATE [ [ GLOBAL | LOCAL ] { TEMPORARY | TEMP } | UNLOGGED ] TABLE [ IF NOT
> EXISTS ] table_name ( [
> { column_name data_type [ COLLATE collation ] [ column_constraint [ ... ]
> ]
> | table_constraint
> | LIKE source_table [ like_option ... ] }
> [, ... ]
> ] )
> [ INHERITS ( parent_table [, ... ] ) ]
> [ PARTITION BY { RANGE | LIST | HASH } ( { column_name | ( expression ) } [
> COLLATE collation ] [ opclass ] [, ... ] ) ]
> [ USING method ]
> [ WITH ( storage_parameter [= value] [, ... ] ) | WITHOUT OIDS ]
> [ ON COMMIT { PRESERVE ROWS | DELETE ROWS | DROP } ]
> [ TABLESPACE tablespace_name ]
>
> I think a single sentence, like "parens () are required elements in the
> syntax" would suffice.
Good point. How is this patch?
--
Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> https://momjian.us
EDB https://enterprisedb.com
If only the physical world exists, free will is an illusion.
Attachments:
[text/x-diff] paren.diff (504B, ../../YfBcY1QFX038%2FaZ8@momjian.us/2-paren.diff)
download | inline diff:
diff --git a/doc/src/sgml/notation.sgml b/doc/src/sgml/notation.sgml
index bd1e8f629a..77499e8507 100644
--- a/doc/src/sgml/notation.sgml
+++ b/doc/src/sgml/notation.sgml
@@ -11,7 +11,7 @@
(<literal>{</literal> and <literal>}</literal>) and vertical lines
(<literal>|</literal>) indicate that you must choose one
alternative. Dots (<literal>...</literal>) mean that the preceding element
- can be repeated.
+ can be repeated. Parentheses should be interpreted literally.
</para>
<para>
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Conventions
2022-01-25 03:31 Conventions PG Doc comments form <noreply@postgresql.org>
2022-01-25 20:24 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
@ 2022-01-25 22:20 ` David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2022-01-25 22:35 ` Re: Conventions Dave Stewart <davs2rt@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 00:15 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: David G. Johnston @ 2022-01-25 22:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>; +Cc: davs2rt@gmail.com, Pg Docs <pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org>
On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 1:24 PM Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 03:31:03AM +0000, PG Doc comments form wrote:
> > The following documentation comment has been logged on the website:
> >
> > Page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/12/notation.html
> > Description:
> >
> > In section 3, Conventions, it would be helpful to point out that
> > parentheses, when used in the command descriptions, are to be
> interpreted as
> > literal required elements. As a newbie, the combination of {}, [], ()
> was
> > already difficult to parse in command descriptions. Worse when the
> > Conventions element doesn't describe parentheses use in the definitions.
> > Here's a simple example where the parens are easy to miss, and it's not
> > otherwise clear what they do:
> >
> > CREATE [ [ GLOBAL | LOCAL ] { TEMPORARY | TEMP } | UNLOGGED ] TABLE [ IF
> NOT
> > EXISTS ] table_name ( [
> > { column_name data_type [ COLLATE collation ] [ column_constraint [
> ... ]
> > ]
> > | table_constraint
> > | LIKE source_table [ like_option ... ] }
> > [, ... ]
> > ] )
> > [ INHERITS ( parent_table [, ... ] ) ]
> > [ PARTITION BY { RANGE | LIST | HASH } ( { column_name | ( expression )
> } [
> > COLLATE collation ] [ opclass ] [, ... ] ) ]
> > [ USING method ]
> > [ WITH ( storage_parameter [= value] [, ... ] ) | WITHOUT OIDS ]
> > [ ON COMMIT { PRESERVE ROWS | DELETE ROWS | DROP } ]
> > [ TABLESPACE tablespace_name ]
> >
> > I think a single sentence, like "parens () are required elements in the
> > syntax" would suffice.
>
> Good point. How is this patch?
>
Just like with brackets and braces on that page you should add the
parentheses symbols.....in parentheses....:(...like this: (( and )). But
I'd accept it as-is.
There is an implied "anything else not noted here should be taken as
literal token to type, or a variable, as context dictates" [1] - and since
() isn't mentioned...
I'd probably rather make that implied part explicit and avoid mentioning
parentheses explicitly.
I would suggest moving the Tcl parenthetical to its own sentence. The
percentage of readers who will notice or care about Tcl synopses is
probably close to zero, and they are likely to be familiar enough to not
need our preface to enlighten them.
[1] I'm not really sure how you define the convention that "parent_table"
and "storage_parameter" should not be treated as literal tokens but
basically variables which you replace with values.
David J.
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Conventions
2022-01-25 03:31 Conventions PG Doc comments form <noreply@postgresql.org>
2022-01-25 20:24 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-25 22:20 ` Re: Conventions David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
@ 2022-01-25 22:35 ` Dave Stewart <davs2rt@gmail.com>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Dave Stewart @ 2022-01-25 22:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>; +Cc: Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>; Pg Docs <pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org>
Thanks, all, for considering this update.
I like the "anything not noted here..." phrase better than "parentheses
should be interpreted literally." That's a little vague to me.
And *bold_italic* for variables was somehow obvious to me, but I agree with
[1] that it could also be made explicit, too.
On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 2:21 PM David G. Johnston <
david.g.johnston@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 1:24 PM Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 03:31:03AM +0000, PG Doc comments form wrote:
>> > The following documentation comment has been logged on the website:
>> >
>> > Page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/12/notation.html
>> > Description:
>> >
>> > In section 3, Conventions, it would be helpful to point out that
>> > parentheses, when used in the command descriptions, are to be
>> interpreted as
>> > literal required elements. As a newbie, the combination of {}, [], ()
>> was
>> > already difficult to parse in command descriptions. Worse when the
>> > Conventions element doesn't describe parentheses use in the
>> definitions.
>> > Here's a simple example where the parens are easy to miss, and it's not
>> > otherwise clear what they do:
>> >
>> > CREATE [ [ GLOBAL | LOCAL ] { TEMPORARY | TEMP } | UNLOGGED ] TABLE [
>> IF NOT
>> > EXISTS ] table_name ( [
>> > { column_name data_type [ COLLATE collation ] [ column_constraint [
>> ... ]
>> > ]
>> > | table_constraint
>> > | LIKE source_table [ like_option ... ] }
>> > [, ... ]
>> > ] )
>> > [ INHERITS ( parent_table [, ... ] ) ]
>> > [ PARTITION BY { RANGE | LIST | HASH } ( { column_name | ( expression )
>> } [
>> > COLLATE collation ] [ opclass ] [, ... ] ) ]
>> > [ USING method ]
>> > [ WITH ( storage_parameter [= value] [, ... ] ) | WITHOUT OIDS ]
>> > [ ON COMMIT { PRESERVE ROWS | DELETE ROWS | DROP } ]
>> > [ TABLESPACE tablespace_name ]
>> >
>> > I think a single sentence, like "parens () are required elements in the
>> > syntax" would suffice.
>>
>> Good point. How is this patch?
>>
>
> Just like with brackets and braces on that page you should add the
> parentheses symbols.....in parentheses....:(...like this: (( and )). But
> I'd accept it as-is.
>
> There is an implied "anything else not noted here should be taken as
> literal token to type, or a variable, as context dictates" [1] - and since
> () isn't mentioned...
>
> I'd probably rather make that implied part explicit and avoid mentioning
> parentheses explicitly.
>
> I would suggest moving the Tcl parenthetical to its own sentence. The
> percentage of readers who will notice or care about Tcl synopses is
> probably close to zero, and they are likely to be familiar enough to not
> need our preface to enlighten them.
>
> [1] I'm not really sure how you define the convention that "parent_table"
> and "storage_parameter" should not be treated as literal tokens but
> basically variables which you replace with values.
>
> David J.
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Conventions
2022-01-25 03:31 Conventions PG Doc comments form <noreply@postgresql.org>
2022-01-25 20:24 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-25 22:20 ` Re: Conventions David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
@ 2022-01-26 00:15 ` Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-26 01:35 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Tom Lane @ 2022-01-26 00:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>; +Cc: Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>; davs2rt@gmail.com, Pg Docs <pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org>
"David G. Johnston" <david.g.johnston@gmail.com> writes:
> There is an implied "anything else not noted here should be taken as
> literal token to type, or a variable, as context dictates" [1] - and since
> () isn't mentioned...
> I'd probably rather make that implied part explicit and avoid mentioning
> parentheses explicitly.
+1. I mean, if we have to say this for parentheses, what about
commas, dashes, etc?
> I would suggest moving the Tcl parenthetical to its own sentence. The
> percentage of readers who will notice or care about Tcl synopses is
> probably close to zero, and they are likely to be familiar enough to not
> need our preface to enlighten them.
Maybe time to drop the Tcl reference altogether? I like that language,
but I fear it's next door to dead, so it certainly doesn't need to be
mentioned outside the pltcl docs.
regards, tom lane
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Conventions
2022-01-25 03:31 Conventions PG Doc comments form <noreply@postgresql.org>
2022-01-25 20:24 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-25 22:20 ` Re: Conventions David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 00:15 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
@ 2022-01-26 01:35 ` Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-26 02:14 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Bruce Momjian @ 2022-01-26 01:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>; +Cc: David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>; davs2rt@gmail.com, Pg Docs <pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org>
On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 07:15:45PM -0500, Tom Lane wrote:
> "David G. Johnston" <david.g.johnston@gmail.com> writes:
> > There is an implied "anything else not noted here should be taken as
> > literal token to type, or a variable, as context dictates" [1] - and since
> > () isn't mentioned...
> > I'd probably rather make that implied part explicit and avoid mentioning
> > parentheses explicitly.
>
> +1. I mean, if we have to say this for parentheses, what about
> commas, dashes, etc?
>
> > I would suggest moving the Tcl parenthetical to its own sentence. The
> > percentage of readers who will notice or care about Tcl synopses is
> > probably close to zero, and they are likely to be familiar enough to not
> > need our preface to enlighten them.
>
> Maybe time to drop the Tcl reference altogether? I like that language,
> but I fear it's next door to dead, so it certainly doesn't need to be
> mentioned outside the pltcl docs.
How is this patch?
--
Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> https://momjian.us
EDB https://enterprisedb.com
If only the physical world exists, free will is an illusion.
Attachments:
[text/x-diff] paren.diff (955B, ../../YfClUrN2gTEtvrHP@momjian.us/2-paren.diff)
download | inline diff:
diff --git a/doc/src/sgml/notation.sgml b/doc/src/sgml/notation.sgml
index bd1e8f629a..c0f41569cb 100644
--- a/doc/src/sgml/notation.sgml
+++ b/doc/src/sgml/notation.sgml
@@ -6,12 +6,13 @@
<para>
The following conventions are used in the synopsis of a command:
brackets (<literal>[</literal> and <literal>]</literal>) indicate
- optional parts. (In the synopsis of a Tcl command, question marks
- (<literal>?</literal>) are used instead, as is usual in Tcl.) Braces
+ optional parts. Braces
(<literal>{</literal> and <literal>}</literal>) and vertical lines
(<literal>|</literal>) indicate that you must choose one
alternative. Dots (<literal>...</literal>) mean that the preceding element
- can be repeated.
+ can be repeated. All other symbols, including parentheses, should be
+ taken literally. (In the synopsis of a Tcl command, question marks
+ (<literal>?</literal>) are used instead of brackets.)
</para>
<para>
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Conventions
2022-01-25 03:31 Conventions PG Doc comments form <noreply@postgresql.org>
2022-01-25 20:24 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-25 22:20 ` Re: Conventions David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 00:15 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-26 01:35 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
@ 2022-01-26 02:14 ` Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-26 02:15 ` Re: Conventions David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Tom Lane @ 2022-01-26 02:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>; +Cc: David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>; davs2rt@gmail.com, Pg Docs <pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org>
Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> writes:
> How is this patch?
I'd still drop the Tcl bit, or if you must have it, move it to
pltcl.sgml. Otherwise OK by me.
regards, tom lane
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Conventions
2022-01-25 03:31 Conventions PG Doc comments form <noreply@postgresql.org>
2022-01-25 20:24 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-25 22:20 ` Re: Conventions David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 00:15 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-26 01:35 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-26 02:14 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
@ 2022-01-26 02:15 ` David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 02:45 ` Re: Conventions Dave Stewart <davs2rt@gmail.com>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: David G. Johnston @ 2022-01-26 02:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>; +Cc: Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>; davs2rt@gmail.com <davs2rt@gmail.com>; Pg Docs <pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org>
On Tuesday, January 25, 2022, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote:
> Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> writes:
> > How is this patch?
>
> I'd still drop the Tcl bit, or if you must have it, move it to
> pltcl.sgml. Otherwise OK by me.
>
>
>
Agreed.
David J.
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Conventions
2022-01-25 03:31 Conventions PG Doc comments form <noreply@postgresql.org>
2022-01-25 20:24 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-25 22:20 ` Re: Conventions David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 00:15 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-26 01:35 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-26 02:14 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-26 02:15 ` Re: Conventions David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
@ 2022-01-26 02:45 ` Dave Stewart <davs2rt@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 15:52 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Dave Stewart @ 2022-01-26 02:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>; +Cc: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>; Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>; Pg Docs <pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org>
I'm good with it. Thank you!
On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 6:15 PM David G. Johnston <
david.g.johnston@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 25, 2022, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote:
>
>> Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> writes:
>> > How is this patch?
>>
>> I'd still drop the Tcl bit, or if you must have it, move it to
>> pltcl.sgml. Otherwise OK by me.
>>
>>
>>
>
> Agreed.
>
> David J.
>
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Conventions
2022-01-25 03:31 Conventions PG Doc comments form <noreply@postgresql.org>
2022-01-25 20:24 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-25 22:20 ` Re: Conventions David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 00:15 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-26 01:35 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-26 02:14 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-26 02:15 ` Re: Conventions David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 02:45 ` Re: Conventions Dave Stewart <davs2rt@gmail.com>
@ 2022-01-26 15:52 ` Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-26 15:56 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-26 17:01 ` Re: Conventions Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Bruce Momjian @ 2022-01-26 15:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dave Stewart <davs2rt@gmail.com>; +Cc: David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>; Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>; Pg Docs <pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org>
On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 06:45:47PM -0800, Dave Stewart wrote:
> I'm good with it. Thank you!
OK, updated patch attached. I don't think we even show TCL syntax
anywhere anymore, so I removed that text, rather than moving it.
--
Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> https://momjian.us
EDB https://enterprisedb.com
If only the physical world exists, free will is an illusion.
Attachments:
[text/x-diff] paren.diff (847B, ../../YfFuK5fHSAKUN5yV@momjian.us/2-paren.diff)
download | inline diff:
diff --git a/doc/src/sgml/notation.sgml b/doc/src/sgml/notation.sgml
index bd1e8f629a..c3798d5f1b 100644
--- a/doc/src/sgml/notation.sgml
+++ b/doc/src/sgml/notation.sgml
@@ -6,12 +6,12 @@
<para>
The following conventions are used in the synopsis of a command:
brackets (<literal>[</literal> and <literal>]</literal>) indicate
- optional parts. (In the synopsis of a Tcl command, question marks
- (<literal>?</literal>) are used instead, as is usual in Tcl.) Braces
+ optional parts. Braces
(<literal>{</literal> and <literal>}</literal>) and vertical lines
(<literal>|</literal>) indicate that you must choose one
alternative. Dots (<literal>...</literal>) mean that the preceding element
- can be repeated.
+ can be repeated. All other symbols, including parentheses, should be
+ taken literally.
</para>
<para>
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Conventions
2022-01-25 03:31 Conventions PG Doc comments form <noreply@postgresql.org>
2022-01-25 20:24 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-25 22:20 ` Re: Conventions David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 00:15 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-26 01:35 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-26 02:14 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-26 02:15 ` Re: Conventions David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 02:45 ` Re: Conventions Dave Stewart <davs2rt@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 15:52 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
@ 2022-01-26 15:56 ` Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Tom Lane @ 2022-01-26 15:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>; +Cc: Dave Stewart <davs2rt@gmail.com>; David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>; Pg Docs <pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org>
Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> writes:
> OK, updated patch attached. I don't think we even show TCL syntax
> anywhere anymore, so I removed that text, rather than moving it.
WFM.
regards, tom lane
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Conventions
2022-01-25 03:31 Conventions PG Doc comments form <noreply@postgresql.org>
2022-01-25 20:24 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-25 22:20 ` Re: Conventions David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 00:15 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-26 01:35 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-26 02:14 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-26 02:15 ` Re: Conventions David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 02:45 ` Re: Conventions Dave Stewart <davs2rt@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 15:52 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
@ 2022-01-26 17:01 ` Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org>
2022-01-26 23:32 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Alvaro Herrera @ 2022-01-26 17:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>; +Cc: Dave Stewart <davs2rt@gmail.com>; David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>; Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>; Pg Docs <pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org>
On 2022-Jan-26, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 06:45:47PM -0800, Dave Stewart wrote:
> > I'm good with it. Thank you!
>
> OK, updated patch attached. I don't think we even show TCL syntax
> anywhere anymore, so I removed that text, rather than moving it.
We do here:
https://www.postgresql.org/docs/14/pltcl-dbaccess.html
Maybe not worth bothering, though. I think it should be obvious to
someone already familiar with the language; and for those who aren't,
they probably won't be reading this page.
--
Álvaro Herrera 39°49'30"S 73°17'W — https://www.EnterpriseDB.com/
"Every machine is a smoke machine if you operate it wrong enough."
https://twitter.com/libseybieda/status/1541673325781196801
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Conventions
2022-01-25 03:31 Conventions PG Doc comments form <noreply@postgresql.org>
2022-01-25 20:24 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-25 22:20 ` Re: Conventions David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 00:15 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-26 01:35 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-26 02:14 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-26 02:15 ` Re: Conventions David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 02:45 ` Re: Conventions Dave Stewart <davs2rt@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 15:52 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-26 17:01 ` Re: Conventions Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org>
@ 2022-01-26 23:32 ` Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-27 02:33 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Bruce Momjian @ 2022-01-26 23:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org>; +Cc: Dave Stewart <davs2rt@gmail.com>; David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>; Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>; Pg Docs <pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org>
On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 02:01:40PM -0300, Álvaro Herrera wrote:
> On 2022-Jan-26, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 06:45:47PM -0800, Dave Stewart wrote:
> > > I'm good with it. Thank you!
> >
> > OK, updated patch attached. I don't think we even show TCL syntax
> > anywhere anymore, so I removed that text, rather than moving it.
>
> We do here:
> https://www.postgresql.org/docs/14/pltcl-dbaccess.html
> Maybe not worth bothering, though. I think it should be obvious to
> someone already familiar with the language; and for those who aren't,
> they probably won't be reading this page.
Oh, that helps. I looked for '?' in pltcl.sgml and when I couldn't find
any, I think the use of the question-mark syntax was gone, but I do see
it in the output:
https://www.postgresql.org/docs/14/pltcl-dbaccess.html
and then I found this in stylesheet-common.xsl:
<!-- Special support for Tcl synopses -->
<xsl:template match="optional[@role='tcl']">
--> <xsl:text>?</xsl:text>
<xsl:call-template name="inline.charseq"/>
<xsl:text>?</xsl:text>
</xsl:template>
The attached patch moves the TCL syntax mention to a more appropriate
place.
--
Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> https://momjian.us
EDB https://enterprisedb.com
If only the physical world exists, free will is an illusion.
Attachments:
[text/x-diff] paren.diff (1.3K, ../../YfHZ9Ecpiy%2Fv1oPN@momjian.us/2-paren.diff)
download | inline diff:
diff --git a/doc/src/sgml/notation.sgml b/doc/src/sgml/notation.sgml
index bd1e8f629a..c3798d5f1b 100644
--- a/doc/src/sgml/notation.sgml
+++ b/doc/src/sgml/notation.sgml
@@ -6,12 +6,12 @@
<para>
The following conventions are used in the synopsis of a command:
brackets (<literal>[</literal> and <literal>]</literal>) indicate
- optional parts. (In the synopsis of a Tcl command, question marks
- (<literal>?</literal>) are used instead, as is usual in Tcl.) Braces
+ optional parts. Braces
(<literal>{</literal> and <literal>}</literal>) and vertical lines
(<literal>|</literal>) indicate that you must choose one
alternative. Dots (<literal>...</literal>) mean that the preceding element
- can be repeated.
+ can be repeated. All other symbols, including parentheses, should be
+ taken literally.
</para>
<para>
diff --git a/doc/src/sgml/pltcl.sgml b/doc/src/sgml/pltcl.sgml
index 1759fc4498..6ef968e078 100644
--- a/doc/src/sgml/pltcl.sgml
+++ b/doc/src/sgml/pltcl.sgml
@@ -321,7 +321,8 @@ $$ LANGUAGE pltcl;
<para>
The following commands are available to access the database from
- the body of a PL/Tcl function:
+ the body of a PL/Tcl function (brackets (<literal>[</literal> and
+ <literal>]</literal>) are represented here as question marks):
<variablelist>
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Conventions
2022-01-25 03:31 Conventions PG Doc comments form <noreply@postgresql.org>
2022-01-25 20:24 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-25 22:20 ` Re: Conventions David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 00:15 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-26 01:35 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-26 02:14 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-26 02:15 ` Re: Conventions David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 02:45 ` Re: Conventions Dave Stewart <davs2rt@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 15:52 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-26 17:01 ` Re: Conventions Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org>
2022-01-26 23:32 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
@ 2022-01-27 02:33 ` Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-27 02:51 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Tom Lane @ 2022-01-27 02:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>; +Cc: Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org>; Dave Stewart <davs2rt@gmail.com>; David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>; Pg Docs <pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org>
Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> writes:
> OK, updated patch attached. I don't think we even show TCL syntax
> anywhere anymore, so I removed that text, rather than moving it.
I really don't care for this phrasing at all:
- the body of a PL/Tcl function:
+ the body of a PL/Tcl function (brackets (<literal>[</literal> and
+ <literal>]</literal>) are represented here as question marks):
It's unclear whether you mean actual brackets or metasyntactic brackets;
somebody who hasn't completely internalized the notion of brackets as
indicating optional elements would be particularly likely to
misunderstand.
I'd also suggest that wedging this into a parenthetic remark between a
sentence and the example the sentence is talking about is awkward.
I'd suggest a separate para at some point before the first usage,
along the lines of
In this section, we follow the usual Tcl convention of using question
marks, rather than brackets, to indicate an optional element in a
syntax synopsis.
regards, tom lane
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Conventions
2022-01-25 03:31 Conventions PG Doc comments form <noreply@postgresql.org>
2022-01-25 20:24 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-25 22:20 ` Re: Conventions David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 00:15 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-26 01:35 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-26 02:14 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-26 02:15 ` Re: Conventions David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 02:45 ` Re: Conventions Dave Stewart <davs2rt@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 15:52 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-26 17:01 ` Re: Conventions Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org>
2022-01-26 23:32 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-27 02:33 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
@ 2022-01-27 02:51 ` Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-02-03 02:54 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Bruce Momjian @ 2022-01-27 02:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>; +Cc: Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org>; Dave Stewart <davs2rt@gmail.com>; David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>; Pg Docs <pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org>
On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 09:33:58PM -0500, Tom Lane wrote:
> Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> writes:
> > OK, updated patch attached. I don't think we even show TCL syntax
> > anywhere anymore, so I removed that text, rather than moving it.
>
> I really don't care for this phrasing at all:
>
> - the body of a PL/Tcl function:
> + the body of a PL/Tcl function (brackets (<literal>[</literal> and
> + <literal>]</literal>) are represented here as question marks):
>
> It's unclear whether you mean actual brackets or metasyntactic brackets;
> somebody who hasn't completely internalized the notion of brackets as
> indicating optional elements would be particularly likely to
> misunderstand.
>
> I'd also suggest that wedging this into a parenthetic remark between a
> sentence and the example the sentence is talking about is awkward.
>
> I'd suggest a separate para at some point before the first usage,
> along the lines of
>
> In this section, we follow the usual Tcl convention of using question
> marks, rather than brackets, to indicate an optional element in a
> syntax synopsis.
Oh, then I didn't understand it either. I know Tcl uses brackets for
stuff so I thought there was some weird syntax that represented brackets
as something else. Anyway, updated patch attached.
--
Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> https://momjian.us
EDB https://enterprisedb.com
If only the physical world exists, free will is an illusion.
Attachments:
[text/x-diff] paren.diff (1.5K, ../../YfIIySTYopod5t21@momjian.us/2-paren.diff)
download | inline diff:
diff --git a/doc/src/sgml/notation.sgml b/doc/src/sgml/notation.sgml
index bd1e8f629a..c3798d5f1b 100644
--- a/doc/src/sgml/notation.sgml
+++ b/doc/src/sgml/notation.sgml
@@ -6,12 +6,12 @@
<para>
The following conventions are used in the synopsis of a command:
brackets (<literal>[</literal> and <literal>]</literal>) indicate
- optional parts. (In the synopsis of a Tcl command, question marks
- (<literal>?</literal>) are used instead, as is usual in Tcl.) Braces
+ optional parts. Braces
(<literal>{</literal> and <literal>}</literal>) and vertical lines
(<literal>|</literal>) indicate that you must choose one
alternative. Dots (<literal>...</literal>) mean that the preceding element
- can be repeated.
+ can be repeated. All other symbols, including parentheses, should be
+ taken literally.
</para>
<para>
diff --git a/doc/src/sgml/pltcl.sgml b/doc/src/sgml/pltcl.sgml
index 1759fc4498..9839e375ad 100644
--- a/doc/src/sgml/pltcl.sgml
+++ b/doc/src/sgml/pltcl.sgml
@@ -320,8 +320,10 @@ $$ LANGUAGE pltcl;
<title>Database Access from PL/Tcl</title>
<para>
- The following commands are available to access the database from
- the body of a PL/Tcl function:
+ In this section, we follow the usual Tcl convention of using question
+ marks, rather than brackets, to indicate an optional element in a
+ syntax synopsis. The following commands are available to access
+ the database from the body of a PL/Tcl function:
<variablelist>
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Conventions
2022-01-25 03:31 Conventions PG Doc comments form <noreply@postgresql.org>
2022-01-25 20:24 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-25 22:20 ` Re: Conventions David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 00:15 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-26 01:35 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-26 02:14 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-26 02:15 ` Re: Conventions David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 02:45 ` Re: Conventions Dave Stewart <davs2rt@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 15:52 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-26 17:01 ` Re: Conventions Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org>
2022-01-26 23:32 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-27 02:33 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-27 02:51 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
@ 2022-02-03 02:54 ` Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Bruce Momjian @ 2022-02-03 02:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>; +Cc: Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org>; Dave Stewart <davs2rt@gmail.com>; David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>; Pg Docs <pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org>
On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 09:51:53PM -0500, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > I'd suggest a separate para at some point before the first usage,
> > along the lines of
> >
> > In this section, we follow the usual Tcl convention of using question
> > marks, rather than brackets, to indicate an optional element in a
> > syntax synopsis.
>
> Oh, then I didn't understand it either. I know Tcl uses brackets for
> stuff so I thought there was some weird syntax that represented brackets
> as something else. Anyway, updated patch attached.
Patch applied to all supported versions. Dave, thanks for pointing out
this problem.
--
Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> https://momjian.us
EDB https://enterprisedb.com
If only the physical world exists, free will is an illusion.
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2022-02-03 02:54 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 18+ messages (download: mbox mbox.gz follow: Atom feed)
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2022-01-25 03:31 Conventions PG Doc comments form <noreply@postgresql.org>
2022-01-25 20:24 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-25 22:20 ` Re: Conventions David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2022-01-25 22:35 ` Re: Conventions Dave Stewart <davs2rt@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 00:15 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-26 01:35 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-26 02:14 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-26 02:15 ` Re: Conventions David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 02:45 ` Re: Conventions Dave Stewart <davs2rt@gmail.com>
2022-01-26 15:52 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-26 15:56 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-26 17:01 ` Re: Conventions Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org>
2022-01-26 23:32 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-01-27 02:33 ` Re: Conventions Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2022-01-27 02:51 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2022-02-03 02:54 ` Re: Conventions Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
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