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* inappropriate word 'victim'
@ 2017-10-03 19:38 devguy.ca@gmail.com
2017-10-03 19:53 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: devguy.ca@gmail.com @ 2017-10-03 19:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: pgsql-docs
The following documentation comment has been logged on the website:
Page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.6/static/manage-ag-dropdb.html
Description:
I am sure this would be reword
"...while connected to the victim database."
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^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: inappropriate word 'victim'
2017-10-03 19:38 inappropriate word 'victim' devguy.ca@gmail.com
@ 2017-10-03 19:53 ` Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
2017-10-03 20:28 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2017-10-03 20:36 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' Erik Rijkers <er@xs4all.nl>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Joshua D. Drake @ 2017-10-03 19:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: devguy.ca@gmail.com; pgsql-docs
On 10/03/2017 12:38 PM, devguy.ca@gmail.com wrote:
> The following documentation comment has been logged on the website:
>
> Page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.6/static/manage-ag-dropdb.html
> Description:
>
> I am sure this would be reword
>
> "...while connected to the victim database."
>
Victim seems to be an appropriate word for what is happening but I guess
I can see an argument for "subject"
"while connected to the subject database" or something else.
JD
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^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: inappropriate word 'victim'
2017-10-03 19:38 inappropriate word 'victim' devguy.ca@gmail.com
2017-10-03 19:53 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
@ 2017-10-03 20:28 ` David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2017-10-03 20:29 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: David G. Johnston @ 2017-10-03 20:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>; +Cc: pgsql-docs
On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 12:53 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
wrote:
> On 10/03/2017 12:38 PM, devguy.ca@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> The following documentation comment has been logged on the website:
>>
>> Page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.6/static/manage-ag-dropdb.html
>> Description:
>>
>> I am sure this would be reword
>>
>> "...while connected to the victim database."
>>
>>
> Victim seems to be an appropriate word for what is happening but I guess I
> can see an argument for "subject"
>
> "while connected to the subject database" or something else.
My first inclination was "target" though I suppose its not that much
closer to the supposed neutral position on this subjective scale than
"victim".
Subject didn't sound right either (marginally). Maybe "named" - "...while
connected to the named database."
Given that, aside from 3 release note instances, we never use the word
"victim" in the docs leads me to want to change this if just for internal
consistency.
David J.
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: inappropriate word 'victim'
2017-10-03 19:38 inappropriate word 'victim' devguy.ca@gmail.com
2017-10-03 19:53 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
2017-10-03 20:28 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
@ 2017-10-03 20:29 ` Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
2017-10-03 21:53 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' Jonathan S. Katz <jkatz@postgresql.org>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Joshua D. Drake @ 2017-10-03 20:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>; +Cc: pgsql-docs
On 10/03/2017 01:28 PM, David G. Johnston wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 12:53 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com
> My first inclination was "target" though I suppose its not that much
> closer to the supposed neutral position on this subjective scale than
> "victim".
>
> Subject didn't sound right either (marginally). Maybe "named" -
> "...while connected to the named database."
>
> Given that, aside from 3 release note instances, we never use the word
> "victim" in the docs leads me to want to change this if just for
> internal consistency.
Named is probably the best middle ground.
JD
>
> David J.
>
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^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: inappropriate word 'victim'
2017-10-03 19:38 inappropriate word 'victim' devguy.ca@gmail.com
2017-10-03 19:53 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
2017-10-03 20:28 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2017-10-03 20:29 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
@ 2017-10-03 21:53 ` Jonathan S. Katz <jkatz@postgresql.org>
2017-10-03 23:05 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Jonathan S. Katz @ 2017-10-03 21:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>; +Cc: David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>; pgsql-docs
> On Oct 3, 2017, at 4:29 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com> wrote:
>
> On 10/03/2017 01:28 PM, David G. Johnston wrote:
>> On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 12:53 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com
>
>> My first inclination was "target" though I suppose its not that much closer to the supposed neutral position on this subjective scale than "victim".
>> Subject didn't sound right either (marginally). Maybe "named" - "...while connected to the named database."
>> Given that, aside from 3 release note instances, we never use the word "victim" in the docs leads me to want to change this if just for internal consistency.
>
> Named is probably the best middle ground.
If you click into the documentation for DROP DATABASE [https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/static/sql-dropdatabase.html <https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/static/sql-dropdatabase.html;] you get:
"Also, it cannot be executed while you or anyone else are connected to the target database."
So there is a precedent for using “target” for this command.
Jonathan=
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: inappropriate word 'victim'
2017-10-03 19:38 inappropriate word 'victim' devguy.ca@gmail.com
2017-10-03 19:53 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
2017-10-03 20:28 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2017-10-03 20:29 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
2017-10-03 21:53 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' Jonathan S. Katz <jkatz@postgresql.org>
@ 2017-10-03 23:05 ` Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2017-10-04 00:17 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' Stephen Frost <sfrost@snowman.net>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Tom Lane @ 2017-10-03 23:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jonathan S. Katz <jkatz@postgresql.org>; +Cc: Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>; David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>; pgsql-docs
"Jonathan S. Katz" <jkatz@postgresql.org> writes:
> So there is a precedent for using “target” for this command.
I wouldn't object to substituting "target" for "victim"; they're both
pretty specific, and there's little risk of misunderstanding which
database is meant. I don't know if that amounts to much of an
advance in political correctness, though.
I'm less happy about substituting vaguer words like "subject".
Particularly for non-native English speakers, that seems like it
could be confusing --- eg, if you know the distinction between
subject and object of a sentence, you might think it means the
DB where the command is being issued.
regards, tom lane
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^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: inappropriate word 'victim'
2017-10-03 19:38 inappropriate word 'victim' devguy.ca@gmail.com
2017-10-03 19:53 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
2017-10-03 20:28 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2017-10-03 20:29 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
2017-10-03 21:53 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' Jonathan S. Katz <jkatz@postgresql.org>
2017-10-03 23:05 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
@ 2017-10-04 00:17 ` Stephen Frost <sfrost@snowman.net>
2017-10-04 06:33 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' Oleg Bartunov <obartunov@gmail.com>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Stephen Frost @ 2017-10-04 00:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>; +Cc: Jonathan S. Katz <jkatz@postgresql.org>; Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>; David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>; pgsql-docs
Tom, all,
* Tom Lane (tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us) wrote:
> "Jonathan S. Katz" <jkatz@postgresql.org> writes:
> > So there is a precedent for using “target” for this command.
>
> I wouldn't object to substituting "target" for "victim"; they're both
> pretty specific, and there's little risk of misunderstanding which
> database is meant. I don't know if that amounts to much of an
> advance in political correctness, though.
Based on my review of what 'dict' returns for each, 'target' is
distinctly more appropriate. Both definitions in WordNet for
'victim' refer to a 'person' and other dictionaries definitely
refer to 'person or living creature' more than not.
The definitions for 'target', on the other hand, more generally refer to
a goal or something which is being shot at and the references to
'person' in those definitions appears more in the vein of "covering all
bases" as it relates to 'person, place, or thing'.
> I'm less happy about substituting vaguer words like "subject".
> Particularly for non-native English speakers, that seems like it
> could be confusing --- eg, if you know the distinction between
> subject and object of a sentence, you might think it means the
> DB where the command is being issued.
Agreed.
Thanks!
Stephen
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^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: inappropriate word 'victim'
2017-10-03 19:38 inappropriate word 'victim' devguy.ca@gmail.com
2017-10-03 19:53 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
2017-10-03 20:28 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2017-10-03 20:29 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
2017-10-03 21:53 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' Jonathan S. Katz <jkatz@postgresql.org>
2017-10-03 23:05 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2017-10-04 00:17 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' Stephen Frost <sfrost@snowman.net>
@ 2017-10-04 06:33 ` Oleg Bartunov <obartunov@gmail.com>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Oleg Bartunov @ 2017-10-04 06:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Stephen Frost <sfrost@snowman.net>; +Cc: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>; Jonathan S. Katz <jkatz@postgresql.org>; Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>; David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>; pgsql-docs
On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 3:17 AM, Stephen Frost <sfrost@snowman.net> wrote:
> Tom, all,
>
> * Tom Lane (tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us) wrote:
>> "Jonathan S. Katz" <jkatz@postgresql.org> writes:
>> > So there is a precedent for using “target” for this command.
>>
>> I wouldn't object to substituting "target" for "victim"; they're both
>> pretty specific, and there's little risk of misunderstanding which
>> database is meant. I don't know if that amounts to much of an
>> advance in political correctness, though.
>
> Based on my review of what 'dict' returns for each, 'target' is
> distinctly more appropriate. Both definitions in WordNet for
> 'victim' refer to a 'person' and other dictionaries definitely
> refer to 'person or living creature' more than not.
>
As a non-native English speaker I associate 'victim' with a person, so
'target' sound more neutral and enough informative.
> The definitions for 'target', on the other hand, more generally refer to
> a goal or something which is being shot at and the references to
> 'person' in those definitions appears more in the vein of "covering all
> bases" as it relates to 'person, place, or thing'.
>
>> I'm less happy about substituting vaguer words like "subject".
>> Particularly for non-native English speakers, that seems like it
>> could be confusing --- eg, if you know the distinction between
>> subject and object of a sentence, you might think it means the
>> DB where the command is being issued.
>
> Agreed.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Stephen
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^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: inappropriate word 'victim'
2017-10-03 19:38 inappropriate word 'victim' devguy.ca@gmail.com
2017-10-03 19:53 ` Re: inappropriate word 'victim' Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
@ 2017-10-03 20:36 ` Erik Rijkers <er@xs4all.nl>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Erik Rijkers @ 2017-10-03 20:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>; +Cc: devguy.ca@gmail.com; pgsql-docs; pgsql-docs-owner@postgresql.org
On 2017-10-03 21:53, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> On 10/03/2017 12:38 PM, devguy.ca@gmail.com wrote:
>> The following documentation comment has been logged on the website:
>>
>> Page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.6/static/manage-ag-dropdb.html
>> Description:
>>
>> I am sure this would be reword
>>
>> "...while connected to the victim database."
>>
>
> Victim seems to be an appropriate word for what is happening but I
> guess I can see an argument for "subject"
>
> "while connected to the subject database" or something else.
>
> JD
I find 'victim database' admirably clear in conjunction with DROP
DATABASE.
Let's not change it.
Erik Rijkers
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2017-10-03 19:38 inappropriate word 'victim' devguy.ca@gmail.com
2017-10-03 19:53 ` Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
2017-10-03 20:28 ` David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
2017-10-03 20:29 ` Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
2017-10-03 21:53 ` Jonathan S. Katz <jkatz@postgresql.org>
2017-10-03 23:05 ` Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
2017-10-04 00:17 ` Stephen Frost <sfrost@snowman.net>
2017-10-04 06:33 ` Oleg Bartunov <obartunov@gmail.com>
2017-10-03 20:36 ` Erik Rijkers <er@xs4all.nl>
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