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* Re: Sun Talks about MySQL
@ 2008-04-23 18:58 Greg Smith <gsmith@gregsmith.com>
parent: Justin <justin@emproshunts.com>
1 sibling, 3 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Greg Smith @ 2008-04-23 18:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org
On Wed, 23 Apr 2008, Justin wrote:
> http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Database/CEO-Calls-MySQLs-the-Ferrari-of-Databases/
I can see that, the engines from both companies make similar speed versus
reliability trade-offs: http://www.f1technical.net/news/8507
--
* Greg Smith gsmith@gregsmith.com http://www.gregsmith.com Baltimore, MD
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 17+ messages in thread
* Sun Talks about MySQL
@ 2008-04-23 19:21 Justin <justin@emproshunts.com>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Justin @ 2008-04-23 19:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org
http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Database/Sun-Asserts-MySQL-to-Remain-Open-Source/?sp=0&kc=EWKNLINF04230...
i like the statement
" Sun will not withhold or close-source any features that would make the
MySQL community server less functional for users. "
http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Database/CEO-Calls-MySQLs-the-Ferrari-of-Databases/
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Sun Talks about MySQL
@ 2008-04-23 20:11 Justin <justin@emproshunts.com>
parent: Greg Smith <gsmith@gregsmith.com>
2 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Justin @ 2008-04-23 20:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Greg Smith <gsmith@gregsmith.com>; +Cc: pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org
Greg Smith wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Apr 2008, Justin wrote:
>
>> http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Database/CEO-Calls-MySQLs-the-Ferrari-of-Databases/
>>
>
> I can see that, the engines from both companies make similar speed
> versus reliability trade-offs: http://www.f1technical.net/news/8507
>
> --
> * Greg Smith gsmith@gregsmith.com http://www.gregsmith.com Baltimore, MD
>
LOL :-D
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Sun Talks about MySQL
@ 2008-04-23 20:59 korry <korry.douglas@enterprisedb.com>
parent: Greg Smith <gsmith@gregsmith.com>
2 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: korry @ 2008-04-23 20:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Greg Smith <gsmith@gregsmith.com>; +Cc: pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org
>> http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Database/CEO-Calls-MySQLs-the-Ferrari-of-Databases/
>>
>
> I can see that, the engines from both companies make similar speed
> versus reliability trade-offs: http://www.f1technical.net/news/8507
When they fail, they fail /fast
/-- Korry/
/
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Sun Talks about MySQL
@ 2008-04-23 21:14 Gabriele Bartolini <gabriele.bartolini@gmail.com>
parent: Greg Smith <gsmith@gregsmith.com>
2 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Gabriele Bartolini @ 2008-04-23 21:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Greg Smith <gsmith@gregsmith.com>; +Cc: pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org
> I can see that, the engines from both companies make similar speed
> versus reliability trade-offs: http://www.f1technical.net/news/8507
Guys, let's not joke about Ferrari. :)
By the way, that article was immediately after the first Grand Prix of
the season - a disaster for the racing team. Apparently Ferrari fixed
very well the problems, as they have then won the following two grand prix.
But ... Ferrari is not MySQL, guys.
Actually, we already have our Ferrari in the PostgreSQL community.
PhD Luca Ferrari is indeed the vice president of ITPUG. :)
Ciao,
Gabriele
--
Gabriele Bartolini: Open source programmer and data architect
Current Location: Prato, Tuscany, Italy
gabriele.bartolini@gmail.com | www.gabrielebartolini.it
"If I had been born ugly, you would never have heard of Pelé", George Best
http://www.linkedin.com/in/gbartolini
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Sun Talks about MySQL
@ 2008-04-23 21:17 Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
parent: Gabriele Bartolini <gabriele.bartolini@gmail.com>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Joshua D. Drake @ 2008-04-23 21:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: gabriele.bartolini@gmail.com; +Cc: Greg Smith <gsmith@gregsmith.com>; pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org
On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 23:14:31 +0200
Gabriele Bartolini <gabriele.bartolini@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I can see that, the engines from both companies make similar speed
> > versus reliability trade-offs: http://www.f1technical.net/news/8507
>
> Guys, let's not joke about Ferrari. :)
More appropriately, don't give Ferrari a bad name by associating it
with MySQL.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
--
The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/
PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
United States PostgreSQL Association: http://www.postgresql.us/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Sun Talks about MySQL
@ 2008-04-24 13:28 Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com>
parent: korry <korry.douglas@enterprisedb.com>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Simon Riggs @ 2008-04-24 13:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: korry <korry.douglas@enterprisedb.com>; +Cc: Greg Smith <gsmith@gregsmith.com>; pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org
On Wed, 2008-04-23 at 16:59 -0400, korry wrote:
>
> > > http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Database/CEO-Calls-MySQLs-the-Ferrari-of-Databases/
> >
> > I can see that, the engines from both companies make similar speed
> > versus reliability trade-offs: http://www.f1technical.net/news/8507
> When they fail, they fail fast
I think they have interpreted the flaws of MySQL as something they can
sell more services with - so, dangerous, difficult to use etc all mean
additional $$$. It's certainly what Oracle did for years.
--
Simon Riggs
2ndQuadrant http://www.2ndQuadrant.com
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Sun Talks about MySQL
@ 2008-04-24 13:52 Andrew Sullivan <ajs@crankycanuck.ca>
parent: Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Andrew Sullivan @ 2008-04-24 13:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 02:28:41PM +0100, Simon Riggs wrote:
> I think they have interpreted the flaws of MySQL as something they can
> sell more services with - so, dangerous, difficult to use etc all mean
> additional $$$. It's certainly what Oracle did for years.
_The UNIX Hater's Handbook_ can be interpreted as arguing that the above is
also what Sun did for another well-known technology in the past ;-)
A
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Sun Talks about MySQL
@ 2008-04-24 15:46 Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
parent: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@crankycanuck.ca>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Bruce Momjian @ 2008-04-24 15:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@crankycanuck.ca>; +Cc: pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org
Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 02:28:41PM +0100, Simon Riggs wrote:
>
> > I think they have interpreted the flaws of MySQL as something they can
> > sell more services with - so, dangerous, difficult to use etc all mean
> > additional $$$. It's certainly what Oracle did for years.
>
> _The UNIX Hater's Handbook_ can be interpreted as arguing that the above is
> also what Sun did for another well-known technology in the past ;-)
True, and that strategy works only when there are few alternatives.
--
Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com
+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Sun Talks about MySQL
@ 2008-04-25 12:43 Chander Ganesan <chander@otg-nc.com>
parent: Justin <justin@emproshunts.com>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Chander Ganesan @ 2008-04-25 12:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Justin <justin@emproshunts.com>; +Cc: pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org
Justin wrote:
> http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Database/Sun-Asserts-MySQL-to-Remain-Open-Source/?sp=0&kc=EWKNLINF04230...
>
>
> i like the statement
> " Sun will not withhold or close-source any features that would make
> the MySQL community server less functional for users. "
>
>
> http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Database/CEO-Calls-MySQLs-the-Ferrari-of-Databases/
>
>
The statement I like is:
"This version now has zero bugs," Urlocker told eWEEK.
Though that probably contributes to the immense number of new "features"
. Either that, or their bugzilla installation was running on MyISAM and
there was a crash...
--
Chander Ganesan
Open Technology Group, Inc.
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC 27560
919-463-0999/877-258-8987
http://www.otg-nc.com
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Sun Talks about MySQL
@ 2008-04-25 13:01 Andrew Sullivan <ajs@crankycanuck.ca>
parent: Chander Ganesan <chander@otg-nc.com>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Andrew Sullivan @ 2008-04-25 13:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org
On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 08:43:09AM -0400, Chander Ganesan wrote:
>
> "This version now has zero bugs," Urlocker told eWEEK.
That is pretty amusing, but I also liked this: "Mickos said innovation will
move even faster now that about 100 experienced database engineers from Sun
will be working on MySQL development."
I guess they don't read _The Mythical Man-Month_ at Sun.
A
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Sun Talks about MySQL
@ 2008-04-25 14:41 Jonah H. Harris <jonah.harris@gmail.com>
parent: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@crankycanuck.ca>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Jonah H. Harris @ 2008-04-25 14:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@crankycanuck.ca>; pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org
On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 9:01 AM, Andrew Sullivan <ajs@crankycanuck.ca> wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 08:43:09AM -0400, Chander Ganesan wrote:
> >
> > "This version now has zero bugs," Urlocker told eWEEK.
>
> That is pretty amusing, but I also liked this: "Mickos said innovation will
> move even faster now that about 100 experienced database engineers from Sun
> will be working on MySQL development."
>
> I guess they don't read _The Mythical Man-Month_ at Sun.
Not to rain on my MySQL/Sun bash parade, but your response is based on
the extremely poor assumption that Sun would put 100 developers on a
single project. While Sun has certainly had its share of
software-related problems in the past, I would hope that they
understand basic software project management. It's much more likely
that they will have teams of 6-8 people working on individual
projects.
--
Jonah H. Harris, Sr. Software Architect | phone: 732.331.1324
EnterpriseDB Corporation | fax: 732.331.1301
499 Thornall Street, 2nd Floor | jonah.harris@enterprisedb.com
Edison, NJ 08837 | http://www.enterprisedb.com/
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Sun Talks about MySQL
@ 2008-04-25 14:53 Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
parent: Jonah H. Harris <jonah.harris@gmail.com>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Joshua D. Drake @ 2008-04-25 14:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jonah H. Harris <jonah.harris@gmail.com>; +Cc: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@crankycanuck.ca>; pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org
On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 10:41:24 -0400
"Jonah H. Harris" <jonah.harris@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I guess they don't read _The Mythical Man-Month_ at Sun.
>
> Not to rain on my MySQL/Sun bash parade, but your response is based on
> the extremely poor assumption that Sun would put 100 developers on a
> single project. While Sun has certainly had its share of
> software-related problems in the past, I would hope that they
> understand basic software project management. It's much more likely
> that they will have teams of 6-8 people working on individual
> projects.
I can only assume this response is a joke. :P
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
--
The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/
PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
United States PostgreSQL Association: http://www.postgresql.us/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Sun Talks about MySQL
@ 2008-04-25 15:20 Andrew Sullivan <ajs@crankycanuck.ca>
parent: Jonah H. Harris <jonah.harris@gmail.com>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Andrew Sullivan @ 2008-04-25 15:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org
On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 10:41:24AM -0400, Jonah H. Harris wrote:
> Not to rain on my MySQL/Sun bash parade, but your response is based on
> the extremely poor assumption that Sun would put 100 developers on a
> single project.
I was certainly being a little glib, but I do think the original statement
is fatuous. Adding 100 developers to a single product like MySQL -- or, for
that matter, to 20 small projects all working on some feature for MySQL or
even to 20 small projects all aimed at some sort of application that is
supposed to work eith MySQL -- presents a pretty serious management hurdle,
and one that I don't actually think can be leapt in a single bound.
Therefore the claim that the sudden addition of 100 developers who know
about databases to the MySQL "stable" will result in sudden increases in
innovation is nonsense. It'll play to the kind of managers who believe in
throwing people at a problem, of course -- and I've worked for plenty of
them in my life.
The claim, however, was really part of the bigger claim that the transition
from small-distributed-company to organic-part-of-Sun is over: that was the
real message in those comments. This, too, I find incredible. Either it's
a happy face for the public, or else the honeymoon isn't over. Integrating
sudden infusions of people into a strongly developed (some pronounce that
"ossified") culture like Sun's takes rather more time than has passed so
far, no matter how compatible the cultures seem on the surface. Power
relationships do not change that fast in human societies, ever. By way of
comparison, the most obviously successful absorbtion of this type Sun ever
did was StarOffice, and it would be pretty hard to argue that that project
was either an unmitigated victory or a fast integration.
A
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Sun Talks about MySQL
@ 2008-04-26 00:09 Greg Smith <gsmith@gregsmith.com>
parent: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@crankycanuck.ca>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Greg Smith @ 2008-04-26 00:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org
On Fri, 25 Apr 2008, Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> Therefore the claim that the sudden addition of 100 developers who know
> about databases to the MySQL "stable" will result in sudden increases in
> innovation is nonsense.
Adding a bunch of new developers to a project involving a code base they
are unfamiliar with will inevitably reduce short-term reliability. But
you can't pay attention to anything said by someone who claims any piece
of software has zero bugs anyway; they've clearly lost all touch with
reality and are saying nonsense. Zack at MySQL might as well have said
that they have magical code fairies who have fixed 5.1 and will continue
to be on board for future releases.
I think it shows how much MySQL has been feeling the pain from the truly
shoddy 5.0 release and its associated quality control issues that they are
publicizing the incredible number of bug fixes they had to do, and flat
out admitting they weren't happy with it.
An interesting data point is they advertise a 10-15% gain in DBT2 results.
I've started thinking about a 2008 update to my "PostgreSQL vs. MySQL"
paper that covers PG 8.3 and MySQL 5.1. I'd love to have a similar
comparision using that same benchmark of PG8.2->PG8.3. I recall Heikki
was doing lots of tests with DBT2 for EnterpriseDB comparing those two
releases like that; anybody know of a good summary I could utilize there?
I thought that was one of the benchmarks that got a 20-30% speedup on
going to 8.3 because it really took advantage of HOT in particular.
--
* Greg Smith gsmith@gregsmith.com http://www.gregsmith.com Baltimore, MD
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Sun Talks about MySQL
@ 2008-04-26 00:35 Euler Taveira de Oliveira <euler@timbira.com>
parent: Greg Smith <gsmith@gregsmith.com>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Euler Taveira de Oliveira @ 2008-04-26 00:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Greg Smith <gsmith@gregsmith.com>; +Cc: pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org
Greg Smith wrote:
> An interesting data point is they advertise a 10-15% gain in DBT2
> results. I've started thinking about a 2008 update to my "PostgreSQL vs.
> MySQL" paper that covers PG 8.3 and MySQL 5.1. I'd love to have a
> similar comparision using that same benchmark of PG8.2->PG8.3. I recall
> Heikki was doing lots of tests with DBT2 for EnterpriseDB comparing
> those two releases like that; anybody know of a good summary I could
> utilize there? I thought that was one of the benchmarks that got a
> 20-30% speedup on going to 8.3 because it really took advantage of HOT
> in particular.
>
I did some benchmarks for 8.2 and 8.3. I'll show them at PGCon in a few
weeks. But I didn't try MySQL. It would be good if someone should do
such a comparison.
--
Euler Taveira de Oliveira
http://www.timbira.com/
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 17+ messages in thread
* Re: Sun Talks about MySQL
@ 2008-04-26 06:21 Gregory Stark <stark@enterprisedb.com>
parent: Euler Taveira de Oliveira <euler@timbira.com>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Gregory Stark @ 2008-04-26 06:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Euler Taveira de Oliveira <euler@timbira.com>; +Cc: Greg Smith <gsmith@gregsmith.com>; pgsql-advocacy@postgresql.org
"Euler Taveira de Oliveira" <euler@timbira.com> writes:
>> I recall Heikki was doing lots of tests with DBT2 for EnterpriseDB
>> comparing those two releases like that; anybody know of a good summary I
>> could utilize there? I thought that was one of the benchmarks that got a
>> 20-30% speedup on going to 8.3 because it really took advantage of HOT in
>> particular.
If you're doing large TPC-C runs then the phantom-command-id and packed
varlena changes give you about 9% space savings which translates surprisingly
nicely into about 9% TPM increase. (This is for a specific schema, if you
dumbify your schema with char(1)s and numerics you could see a bigger
difference)
HOT has a *huge* effect on how long your can run the benchmark before
performance starts to droop. However the minimum run time for TPCC is only 2
hours and for large runs that's not enough for vacuum-related issues to kick
in.
Also, smoothed checkpoints have a *huge* effect but TPC-C is based on 95th
percentile response times and the checkpoints only affect about 1% of the
transaction response times.
I think TPC-E will make both of these major improvements much more important.
I suspect it would be hard to get 8.2 to even pass TPC-E due to the checkpoint
dropouts.
--
Gregory Stark
EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com
Ask me about EnterpriseDB's On-Demand Production Tuning
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 17+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2008-04-26 06:21 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 17+ messages (download: mbox mbox.gz follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2008-04-23 19:21 Sun Talks about MySQL Justin <justin@emproshunts.com>
2008-04-23 18:58 ` Greg Smith <gsmith@gregsmith.com>
2008-04-23 20:11 ` Justin <justin@emproshunts.com>
2008-04-23 20:59 ` korry <korry.douglas@enterprisedb.com>
2008-04-24 13:28 ` Simon Riggs <simon@2ndquadrant.com>
2008-04-24 13:52 ` Andrew Sullivan <ajs@crankycanuck.ca>
2008-04-24 15:46 ` Bruce Momjian <bruce@momjian.us>
2008-04-23 21:14 ` Gabriele Bartolini <gabriele.bartolini@gmail.com>
2008-04-23 21:17 ` Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
2008-04-25 12:43 ` Chander Ganesan <chander@otg-nc.com>
2008-04-25 13:01 ` Andrew Sullivan <ajs@crankycanuck.ca>
2008-04-25 14:41 ` Jonah H. Harris <jonah.harris@gmail.com>
2008-04-25 14:53 ` Joshua D. Drake <jd@commandprompt.com>
2008-04-25 15:20 ` Andrew Sullivan <ajs@crankycanuck.ca>
2008-04-26 00:09 ` Greg Smith <gsmith@gregsmith.com>
2008-04-26 00:35 ` Euler Taveira de Oliveira <euler@timbira.com>
2008-04-26 06:21 ` Gregory Stark <stark@enterprisedb.com>
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