public inbox for [email protected]help / color / mirror / Atom feed
Developer's Wiki 45+ messages / 16 participants [nested] [flat]
* Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-02 19:33 Dave Page <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 2 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Dave Page @ 2006-09-02 19:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: [email protected] <[email protected]>; pgsql-www I have now moved the wiki installation to: http://developer.postgresql.org/ Where it is currently available for use by any hackers for non-end-user related activities. I haven't changed Greg's original configuration at all so it is still open for use by anyone at present, however I have added an introduction to the front page warning that end-user related content may be removed without notice. I've also added a couple of sections under which to add links to projects and management documentation hosted on the wiki. Let's see how it goes for now, and if it gets abused in anyway we can review whether or not we need to think about moderation. Regards, Dave. ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-02 22:08 Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> parent: Dave Page <[email protected]> 1 sibling, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Martijn van Oosterhout @ 2006-09-02 22:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dave Page <[email protected]>; +Cc: [email protected] <[email protected]>; pgsql-www On Sat, Sep 02, 2006 at 08:33:41PM +0100, Dave Page wrote: > I have now moved the wiki installation to: > > http://developer.postgresql.org/ Ok, it looks like pages can be arranged hierarchically. It would seems like pages named: Todo:<todo topic> would be a good idea for detailed info on todo items (and progress info). With Todo:Contents being a front page? Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> http://svana.org/kleptog/ > From each according to his ability. To each according to his ability to litigate. Attachments: [application/pgp-signature] signature.asc (189B, 2-signature.asc) download ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-02 22:46 Dave Page <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Dave Page @ 2006-09-02 22:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; +Cc: [email protected]; pgsql-www Sounds reasonable to me. Regards, Dave -----Original Message----- From: "Martijn van Oosterhout" <[email protected]> To: "Dave Page" <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected]; "PostgreSQL WWW" <[email protected]> Sent: 02/09/06 23:08 Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki On Sat, Sep 02, 2006 at 08:33:41PM +0100, Dave Page wrote: > I have now moved the wiki installation to: > > http://developer.postgresql.org/ Ok, it looks like pages can be arranged hierarchically. It would seems like pages named: Todo:<todo topic> would be a good idea for detailed info on todo items (and progress info). With Todo:Contents being a front page? Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> http://svana.org/kleptog/ > From each according to his ability. To each according to his ability to litigate. ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-03 21:36 Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> parent: Dave Page <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Martijn van Oosterhout @ 2006-09-03 21:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dave Page <[email protected]>; +Cc: [email protected]; pgsql-www On Sat, Sep 02, 2006 at 11:46:12PM +0100, Dave Page wrote: > Sounds reasonable to me. Ok, I've typed some stuff in here: http://developer.postgresql.org/index.php/Todo:Contents http://developer.postgresql.org/index.php/Todo:Collate Is this the kind of thing people are expecting? Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> http://svana.org/kleptog/ > From each according to his ability. To each according to his ability to litigate. Attachments: [application/pgp-signature] signature.asc (189B, 2-signature.asc) download ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-04 03:30 Neil Conway <[email protected]> parent: Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Neil Conway @ 2006-09-04 03:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; +Cc: Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]>; pgsql-www Martijn van Oosterhout said: > Ok, it looks like pages can be arranged hierarchically. Well, a prefix like "Todo:" is not the incantation one needs to use to arrange pages in hierarchies. You probably want "/" to indicate a subpage: i.e. "Parent/Child". See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Link#Subpage_feature > It would seems like pages named: > > Todo:<todo topic> > > would be a good idea for detailed info on todo items (and progress > info). I suggest you just give pages names that describe the content of the page, and then have a category for all the pages that constitute TODO items. See: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Category -Neil ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-04 06:11 Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> parent: Neil Conway <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Martijn van Oosterhout @ 2006-09-04 06:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Neil Conway <[email protected]>; +Cc: Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]>; pgsql-www On Sun, Sep 03, 2006 at 08:30:13PM -0700, Neil Conway wrote: > Martijn van Oosterhout said: > > Ok, it looks like pages can be arranged hierarchically. > > Well, a prefix like "Todo:" is not the incantation one needs to use to > arrange pages in hierarchies. You probably want "/" to indicate a subpage: > i.e. "Parent/Child". See > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Link#Subpage_feature It also says it's not enabled by default. Is it enabled? I was actually hoping for more feedback on the content itself. I'm still not clear if it's supposed to be "developers only - to the exclusion of users" or "developers only - but accessable to anyone". Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> http://svana.org/kleptog/ > From each according to his ability. To each according to his ability to litigate. Attachments: [application/pgp-signature] signature.asc (189B, 2-signature.asc) download ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-16 19:25 Josh Berkus <[email protected]> parent: Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Josh Berkus @ 2006-09-16 19:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: pgsql-www; Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; +Cc: Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> Martjin, > I was actually hoping for more feedback on the content itself. I'm > still not clear if it's supposed to be "developers only - to the > exclusion of users" or "developers only - but accessable to anyone". It should be readable by everyone, but editable only by authorized users. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL @ Sun San Francisco ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-16 19:40 Gregory Stark <[email protected]> parent: Josh Berkus <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 2 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Gregory Stark @ 2006-09-16 19:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; +Cc: pgsql-www; Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> Josh Berkus <[email protected]> writes: >> I was actually hoping for more feedback on the content itself. I'm >> still not clear if it's supposed to be "developers only - to the >> exclusion of users" or "developers only - but accessable to anyone". > > It should be readable by everyone, but editable only by authorized users. I think the lessons of wikipedia is precisely that you *don't* want to add such barriers. You want to let people add stuff pretty much freely. That encourages people to get involved and put up information. Experience shows that most people are cooperative most of the time. If there turns out to be particularly contentious areas you can restrict access to those areas to authorized users or ban ip addresses. I've already put some stuff up there. I didn't plan to, but when I was browsing I had ideas and the ability to add content was just one click away... -- Gregory Stark EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-16 20:09 Josh Berkus <[email protected]> parent: Gregory Stark <[email protected]> 1 sibling, 2 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Josh Berkus @ 2006-09-16 20:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Gregory Stark <[email protected]>; +Cc: pgsql-www; Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> Greg, > I think the lessons of wikipedia is precisely that you *don't* want to add > such barriers. You want to let people add stuff pretty much freely. That > encourages people to get involved and put up information. The other lesson of Wikipedia is that maintaining wiki quality for a generally editable wiki requires a full-time dedicated staff. We don't even have any volunteers who have 4 hours/week to commit to cleaning up the wiki, unless you're volunteering. This is *particularly* true of the TODO stuff. We simply don't want Joe User adding their personal wishlist to the TODOs, and that's exactly what will happen if the TODO list is world-writable. TODOs should be items which have been hashed out here on the Hackers list, and the wiki page should list the specification which is the general consensus. If we had a "user documentation wiki", then *that* should be world-editable, but again that would require community volunteers to dedicate to cleaning it up. The developer wiki is by and for actual contributors. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL @ Sun San Francisco ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-16 20:27 Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]> parent: Gregory Stark <[email protected]> 1 sibling, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Joshua D. Drake @ 2006-09-16 20:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Gregory Stark <[email protected]>; +Cc: Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; pgsql-www; Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> Gregory Stark wrote: > Josh Berkus <[email protected]> writes: > >>> I was actually hoping for more feedback on the content itself. I'm >>> still not clear if it's supposed to be "developers only - to the >>> exclusion of users" or "developers only - but accessable to anyone". >> It should be readable by everyone, but editable only by authorized users. > > I think the lessons of wikipedia is precisely that you *don't* want to add > such barriers. You want to let people add stuff pretty much freely. That > encourages people to get involved and put up information. I don't agree, you should also look at the recent post and fork by one of wikipedia's co-founders. The developers wiki should only be edited by authorized users. Now, getting authorized should be easy as reasonably possible, but having a wholesale editing orgy on the wiki responsible for tracking postgresql developer information is not a good idea. Joshua D. Drake -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-www] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-16 23:07 Lukas Kahwe Smith <[email protected]> parent: Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Lukas Kahwe Smith @ 2006-09-16 23:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]> Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Gregory Stark wrote: >> Josh Berkus <[email protected]> writes: >> >>>> I was actually hoping for more feedback on the content itself. I'm >>>> still not clear if it's supposed to be "developers only - to the >>>> exclusion of users" or "developers only - but accessable to anyone". >>> It should be readable by everyone, but editable only by authorized >>> users. >> >> I think the lessons of wikipedia is precisely that you *don't* want to >> add >> such barriers. You want to let people add stuff pretty much freely. That >> encourages people to get involved and put up information. > > I don't agree, you should also look at the recent post and fork by one > of wikipedia's co-founders. The developers wiki should only be edited by > authorized users. > > Now, getting authorized should be easy as reasonably possible, but > having a wholesale editing orgy on the wiki responsible for tracking > postgresql developer information is not a good idea. I agree. Banning IPs is simply not feasible. I think a minor moderation step during the signup is little overhead and ensures we know who changed what etc. This is obviously not only important for blaming but also great for talking to people about a given page when it comes time to update it. I think however there should be a "section" that is free for all. It should be clearly labeled with parts are free for all and which are not. It should be easy to move pages from one section to the other and back. Essentially I would say the wiki should be open to anyone who signs up, however there should be pages that are only writeable to people inside a special group. I am not sure how the ACL works in the current wiki. SOme wikis allow you to define ACL's by page, some allow you to create subwikis with different ACLs etc. regards, Lukas ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-16 23:21 Gregory Stark <[email protected]> parent: Josh Berkus <[email protected]> 1 sibling, 2 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Gregory Stark @ 2006-09-16 23:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; +Cc: pgsql-www; Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> Josh Berkus <[email protected]> writes: > The other lesson of Wikipedia is that maintaining wiki quality for a generally > editable wiki requires a full-time dedicated staff. We don't even have any > volunteers who have 4 hours/week to commit to cleaning up the wiki, unless > you're volunteering. Bullshit. Most pages on wikipedia don't require any attention from such staff. There are *millions* of pages constantly being updated something that only works because of that dynamic. Only a small number of pages need any special attention. The wiki has been sitting there for two weeks and hasn't had any problems. It's already getting more attention and updates than the techdocs wiki which still has articles up from 2001 that are no longer relevant and in some cases are actively misleading. Putting barriers up blocking people trying to help isn't any guarantee of quality. What it does guarantee is irrelevance. > This is *particularly* true of the TODO stuff. We simply don't want Joe User > adding their personal wishlist to the TODOs, and that's exactly what will > happen if the TODO list is world-writable. TODOs should be items which have > been hashed out here on the Hackers list, and the wiki page should list the > specification which is the general consensus. Frankly that's what we have today and that's why it's useless. Things only get put on the list when everyone who cares already knows what has to be done and then nobody looks at it because there's nothing there they don't already know about. A TODO list people can freely add stuff to is precisely what would make it useful. It would have things we don't already know. -- Gregory Stark EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-17 00:02 Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]> parent: Gregory Stark <[email protected]> 1 sibling, 2 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Joshua D. Drake @ 2006-09-17 00:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Gregory Stark <[email protected]>; +Cc: Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; pgsql-www; Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> Gregory Stark wrote: > Josh Berkus <[email protected]> writes: > >> The other lesson of Wikipedia is that maintaining wiki quality for a generally >> editable wiki requires a full-time dedicated staff. We don't even have any >> volunteers who have 4 hours/week to commit to cleaning up the wiki, unless >> you're volunteering. > > Bullshit. Most pages on wikipedia don't require any attention from such staff. This does not help your argument. > The wiki has been sitting there for two weeks and hasn't had any problems. > It's already getting more attention and updates than the techdocs wiki which > still has articles up from 2001 that are no longer relevant and in some cases > are actively misleading. Techdocs is a different problem all together. Josh has already mentioned some problems with it. I can mention more. 1. It isn't easy to login 2. It is even harder to create a login 3. There is no creation of login for most people because they don't know they have to go to the community portion of the www site to get to it. I am sure their are other problems on the inside, I haven't actually ever logged in ;) > > Putting barriers up blocking people trying to help isn't any guarantee of > quality. What it does guarantee is irrelevance. Again you argue without actual evidence. Wikipedia is a success it is however it does have quite a bit of problems as well. A simple but very straightforward signup mechanism isn't going to stop most people. > > Frankly that's what we have today and that's why it's useless. Things only get > put on the list when everyone who cares already knows what has to be done and > then nobody looks at it because there's nothing there they don't already know > about. Anytime I have asked for something to be put on the TODO list, it is. As long as I can provide a practical reason as to what it is and why it would be good. That part of the TODO works just fine. Now, do I think there is improvement to be made? Of course but the current TODO is far from useless. > > A TODO list people can freely add stuff to is precisely what would make it > useful. It would have things we don't already know. > I am just going to hope that you are kidding about this one. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-17 01:15 Tom Lane <[email protected]> parent: Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]> 1 sibling, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Tom Lane @ 2006-09-17 01:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]>; +Cc: Gregory Stark <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; pgsql-www; Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> "Joshua D. Drake" <[email protected]> writes: > Gregory Stark wrote: >> A TODO list people can freely add stuff to is precisely what would make it >> useful. It would have things we don't already know. > I am just going to hope that you are kidding about this one. Fortunately, none of the real developers would have to pay any attention to any such page ... and you can bet they wouldn't. regards, tom lane ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-www] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-17 10:05 Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> parent: Tom Lane <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 4 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Martijn van Oosterhout @ 2006-09-17 10:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Tom Lane <[email protected]>; +Cc: Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]>; Gregory Stark <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; pgsql-www; Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> On Sat, Sep 16, 2006 at 09:15:24PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote: > "Joshua D. Drake" <[email protected]> writes: > > Gregory Stark wrote: > >> A TODO list people can freely add stuff to is precisely what would make it > >> useful. It would have things we don't already know. > > > I am just going to hope that you are kidding about this one. > > Fortunately, none of the real developers would have to pay any attention > to any such page ... and you can bet they wouldn't. Well, there is a reason why I put a big label there "Unofficial TODO List". I tried to make it clear that it's not an official stance of the project. If someone wants to spend an afternoon putting up a coherent description of their wishlist item complete with possible problems and solutions, then I don't see why we should stop them. The page someone has put up covering XML told me more about the current state of XML support in postgres than a few hours of archive searching would. It's just not official, that doesn't make it any less useful. Two points I'm not clear about on this thread though: 1. Authorized user: is that someone with an account, or someone who has been authorized by someone else? 2. I can see the official todo list being in CVS, which gives it all the access protection it needs. A wiki todo list can stay where it is, just that it's not official. [I've just made a reference to the TODO list in CVS from the wiki, that should help]. Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> http://svana.org/kleptog/ > From each according to his ability. To each according to his ability to litigate. Attachments: [application/pgp-signature] signature.asc (189B, 2-signature.asc) download ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-17 13:09 Magnus Hagander <[email protected]> parent: Gregory Stark <[email protected]> 1 sibling, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Magnus Hagander @ 2006-09-17 13:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Gregory Stark <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; +Cc: pgsql-www; Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] > The wiki has been sitting there for two weeks and hasn't had > any problems. Uh, you mean apart from the fact that it took very little time (days, IIRC) before we had people writing attempts at user documentation, somthing that we already have *two* different systems (interactive docs + new techdocs) for, and specifically said we absolutely did not want on this wiki? IIRC, that got on there long before *any* content related to what was actually supposed to be there.. > It's already getting more attention and updates than the > techdocs wiki which still has articles up from 2001 that are > no longer relevant and in some cases are actively misleading. It's in the process of being cleaned up, mainly by Robert Treat. I'm sure he'd appreciate help. Why would *this* wiki be less suceptible to the same kind of issues than the old one? That's more an argument that we *will* have this problem on the wiki. //Magnus ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-17 13:13 Magnus Hagander <[email protected]> parent: Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]> 1 sibling, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Magnus Hagander @ 2006-09-17 13:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]>; Gregory Stark <[email protected]>; +Cc: Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; pgsql-www; Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] > Techdocs is a different problem all together. Josh has > already mentioned some problems with it. I can mention more. [warning: thread hi-jack] > 1. It isn't easy to login Really? You're kidding, right? You click a link that requires login, and you get a browser login box. How much easier can it be? > 2. It is even harder to create a login Again, really? If yo uget the login prompt and hit cancel (or just login with an invalid password), that says "you need a community login. If you don't hav eone, click here to read about it." If you "click here", you get to the page where you sign up. Now, explaining this process on the frontpage of the techdocs part of the site might not be a bad idea at all (in fact, it's a good idea :-P), but do you honestly think the process is complex? If so, what should we do to make it easier? > 3. There is no creation of login for most people because they > don't know they have to go to the community portion of the > www site to get to it. See above, you don't need to do this. > I am sure their are other problems on the inside, I haven't > actually ever logged in ;) You should, we'd like to know about them so we can fix them. //Magnus ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-17 13:14 Magnus Hagander <[email protected]> parent: Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> 3 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Magnus Hagander @ 2006-09-17 13:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; Tom Lane <[email protected]>; +Cc: Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]>; Gregory Stark <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; pgsql-www; Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] > Two points I'm not clear about on this thread though: > > 1. Authorized user: is that someone with an account, or > someone who has been authorized by someone else? IIRC, the idea was "someone with an account". Basically you add a (very very small) hurdle so you only get the people who actually *care* to write things. But if you do care, it's not a lot of work. You also get traceability, so you can talk to whomever wrote a certain thing. I don't see any gain in having someone specifically authorize who can write to it. //Magnus ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-17 13:20 Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> parent: Magnus Hagander <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Martijn van Oosterhout @ 2006-09-17 13:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Magnus Hagander <[email protected]>; +Cc: Gregory Stark <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; pgsql-www; Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] On Sun, Sep 17, 2006 at 03:09:29PM +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote: > > The wiki has been sitting there for two weeks and hasn't had > > any problems. > > Uh, you mean apart from the fact that it took very little time (days, > IIRC) before we had people writing attempts at user documentation, <snip> Really? Where was that? Did it get deleted in the meantime? Who's responsible for that kind of thing? Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> http://svana.org/kleptog/ > From each according to his ability. To each according to his ability to litigate. Attachments: [application/pgp-signature] signature.asc (189B, 2-signature.asc) download ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-17 13:22 Magnus Hagander <[email protected]> parent: Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Magnus Hagander @ 2006-09-17 13:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; +Cc: Gregory Stark <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; pgsql-www; Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] > > > The wiki has been sitting there for two weeks and hasn't had any > > > problems. > > > > Uh, you mean apart from the fact that it took very little > time (days, > > IIRC) before we had people writing attempts at user documentation, > > <snip> > > Really? Where was that? Did it get deleted in the meantime? > Who's responsible for that kind of thing? Yes. Dave took it off when he moved the wiki to it's correct place (being developer.postgresql.org) AFAIK, nobody has stepped up to actually take *responsibility* for maintaining the wiki - both software and content-wise. But I may have missed something while I speed-read some lists after getting back. //Magnus ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-17 14:31 Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]> parent: Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> 3 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Joshua D. Drake @ 2006-09-17 14:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; +Cc: Tom Lane <[email protected]>; Gregory Stark <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; pgsql-www; Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> > 1. Authorized user: is that someone with an account, or someone who has > been authorized by someone else? In my mind it is someone who without threw a process of email confirmation. Just to help stave off the amount of trolling that may happen. Joshua D. Drake > > 2. I can see the official todo list being in CVS, which gives it all > the access protection it needs. A wiki todo list can stay where it is, > just that it's not official. > > [I've just made a reference to the TODO list in CVS from the wiki, that > should help]. > > Have a nice day, -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-17 14:41 Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]> parent: Magnus Hagander <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Joshua D. Drake @ 2006-09-17 14:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Magnus Hagander <[email protected]>; +Cc: Gregory Stark <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; pgsql-www; Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] > >> 1. It isn't easy to login > > Really? You're kidding, right? You click a link that requires login, and > you get a browser login box. How much easier can it be? What URL are you talking about? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/techdocs Where do I click login? Where do I click create account? Where do I click to login? > >> 2. It is even harder to create a login > > Again, really? If yo uget the login prompt and hit cancel (or just login > with an invalid password), that says "you need a community login. If you > don't hav eone, click here to read about it." If you "click here", you > get to the page where you sign up. You are corrent, now that I have tried it. If I click edit, and then cancel because I don't have a login I get a page that tells me: * Login required * Accessing this resource requires a community login. If you don't have * one, you can read about it here. To try again, just press your * browsers Refresh button. Which pretty much goes against how every other site in the world does it. I shouldn't have to throw an exception to perform the correct behavior. That page that tells me where to login should come *BEFORE* I get a login prompt. > > Now, explaining this process on the frontpage of the techdocs part of > the site might not be a bad idea at all (in fact, it's a good idea :-P), > but do you honestly think the process is complex? If so, what should we > do to make it easier? Let me rephrase. It is not complex, it is not standard. Which makes it confusing. What I expect is this: Open web browser Go to techdocs Either the first thing I see is, * You are not logged in, if you wish to edit content click here to login or create an account. * When I click edit the above happens. >> 3. There is no creation of login for most people because they >> don't know they have to go to the community portion of the >> www site to get to it. > > See above, you don't need to do this. > You are correct but most people are going to be confused. They are going to click edit, see a login/password they don't have and move on. Heck I probably have hit cancel before and didn't even read the text after. Why? Because the text after a login failure or cancel when using httpd auth is almost ALWAYS telling me I need a correct login. Not giving a link to login. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-17 14:42 Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]> parent: Magnus Hagander <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Joshua D. Drake @ 2006-09-17 14:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Magnus Hagander <[email protected]>; +Cc: Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; Tom Lane <[email protected]>; Gregory Stark <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; pgsql-www; Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] Magnus Hagander wrote: >> Two points I'm not clear about on this thread though: >> >> 1. Authorized user: is that someone with an account, or >> someone who has been authorized by someone else? > > IIRC, the idea was "someone with an account". Basically you add a (very > very small) hurdle so you only get the people who actually *care* to > write things. But if you do care, it's not a lot of work. You also get > traceability, so you can talk to whomever wrote a certain thing. > > I don't see any gain in having someone specifically authorize who can > write to it. Yeah I would agree. My idea was just that people would actually create an account and be email confirmed. Joshua D. Drake > > //Magnus > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend > -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-17 14:45 Gregory Stark <[email protected]> parent: Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Gregory Stark @ 2006-09-17 14:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]>; +Cc: Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; Tom Lane <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; pgsql-www; Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> "Joshua D. Drake" <[email protected]> writes: >> 1. Authorized user: is that someone with an account, or someone who has >> been authorized by someone else? > > In my mind it is someone who without threw a process of email confirmation. > Just to help stave off the amount of trolling that may happen. I guess it depends on whether you feel the larger of the project's problems is too many people trying to help who must be stopped before they do something that may need to be corrected or too few people getting past the natural barriers to being able to contribute. The former would be a great problem to have but I don't see any evidence of it. -- Gregory Stark EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-17 14:47 Magnus Hagander <[email protected]> parent: Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Magnus Hagander @ 2006-09-17 14:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]>; +Cc: Gregory Stark <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; pgsql-www; Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] > >> 1. It isn't easy to login > > > > Really? You're kidding, right? You click a link that > requires login, > > and you get a browser login box. How much easier can it be? > > What URL are you talking about? > > http://www.postgresql.org/docs/techdocs Yes. > Where do I click login? Where do I click create account? > Where do I click to login? You click to do whatever you want to do - say edit a page or create a new page. When you do, you will be asked to log in. There is no point in asking you to log in when you don't need it (such as for reading pages) > You are corrent, now that I have tried it. > > If I click edit, and then cancel because I don't have a login > I get a page that tells me: > > * Login required > > * Accessing this resource requires a community login. If you > don't have > * one, you can read about it here. To try again, just press your > * browsers Refresh button. > > Which pretty much goes against how every other site in the > world does it. I shouldn't have to throw an exception to > perform the correct behavior. No, that's correct. But in *normal* access, you just get the login prompt and you go for it. The usability issue is definitly with the signup though - do you think it'd be enough to just add a blurb about it on the first page of techdocs? > That page that tells me where to login should come *BEFORE* I > get a login prompt. Here, we clearly disagree, I think. If you mean a system like pgFoundry, where you find where you want to go and edit something (say a tracker), then you have to specifically go log in (because you never remember to do that when you get there in the first place - or you may have received the link in email), at which point you are promptly sent off to a completely different page than the one you wanted to edit... > Let me rephrase. It is not complex, it is not standard. Which > makes it confusing. > > What I expect is this: > > Open web browser > Go to techdocs > > Either the first thing I see is, > > * You are not logged in, if you wish to edit content click > here to login or create an account. > > * When I click edit the above happens. Depends on whose standard you look at, I guess. This is how most "proper" sites work, IMHO. There are a whole lot of sucky sites out there, though :-P Therere is anothe rproblem with that one - it does not scale. It requires every pgae to be dynamic and look if you are logged in. > Why? > > Because the text after a login failure or cancel when using > httpd auth is almost ALWAYS telling me I need a correct > login. Not giving a link to login. Yes, this is definitly a problem. again, you think it'd be enough to stick it o nthe frontpage of techdocs, or do we need a small blurb on every page next to the edit links? //Magnus ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer`s Wiki @ 2006-09-17 15:15 Greg Sabino Mullane <[email protected]> parent: Magnus Hagander <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Greg Sabino Mullane @ 2006-09-17 15:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: pgsql-www; +Cc: [email protected] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > AFAIK, nobody has stepped up to actually take *responsibility* for > maintaining the wiki - both software and content-wise. But I may have > missed something while I speed-read some lists after getting back. I'm responsible for the software. I'll certainly help out with the content when I can as well, but it seems we are still tying to hash out some ground rules at the moment. - -- Greg Sabino Mullane [email protected] PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200609171112 http://biglumber.com/x/web?pk=2529DF6AB8F79407E94445B4BC9B906714964AC8 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQFFDWXnvJuQZxSWSsgRAiy2AJ0eBq4uvb4V74WY/Ym8CZjxzGfnGACeN67+ ww7Qj91OCyk39MoidcqhDnA= =MiZH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-17 15:51 Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]> parent: Gregory Stark <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Joshua D. Drake @ 2006-09-17 15:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Gregory Stark <[email protected]>; +Cc: Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; Tom Lane <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; pgsql-www; Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> Gregory Stark wrote: > "Joshua D. Drake" <[email protected]> writes: > >>> 1. Authorized user: is that someone with an account, or someone who has >>> been authorized by someone else? >> In my mind it is someone who without threw a process of email confirmation. >> Just to help stave off the amount of trolling that may happen. > > I guess it depends on whether you feel the larger of the project's problems is > too many people trying to help who must be stopped before they do something > that may need to be corrected or too few people getting past the natural > barriers to being able to contribute. That is a good point. I see it as more of a problem with crap content that could occur and thus good content won't. Joshua D. Drake > > The former would be a great problem to have but I don't see any evidence of > it. > -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-www] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-17 17:16 Md.Abdul Aziz <[email protected]> parent: Josh Berkus <[email protected]> 1 sibling, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Md.Abdul Aziz @ 2006-09-17 17:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; +Cc: Gregory Stark <[email protected]>; pgsql-www; Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> On Sat, 16 Sep 2006, Josh Berkus wrote: Hi, > Greg, > >> I think the lessons of wikipedia is precisely that you *don't* want to add >> such barriers. You want to let people add stuff pretty much freely. That >> encourages people to get involved and put up information. > > The other lesson of Wikipedia is that maintaining wiki quality for a generally > editable wiki requires a full-time dedicated staff. We don't even have any > volunteers who have 4 hours/week to commit to cleaning up the wiki, unless > you're volunteering. Then it will need not be a wiki, just make a website. > > This is *particularly* true of the TODO stuff. We simply don't want Joe User > adding their personal wishlist to the TODOs, and that's exactly what will > happen if the TODO list is world-writable. TODOs should be items which have > been hashed out here on the Hackers list, and the wiki page should list the > specification which is the general consensus. > > If we had a "user documentation wiki", then *that* should be world-editable, > but again that would require community volunteers to dedicate to cleaning it > up. The developer wiki is by and for actual contributors. > > ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-17 18:25 Tom Lane <[email protected]> parent: Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> 3 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Tom Lane @ 2006-09-17 18:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; +Cc: Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]>; Gregory Stark <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; pgsql-www; Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> writes: > On Sat, Sep 16, 2006 at 09:15:24PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote: >> Fortunately, none of the real developers would have to pay any attention >> to any such page ... and you can bet they wouldn't. > If someone wants to spend an afternoon putting up a coherent > description of their wishlist item complete with possible problems and > solutions, then I don't see why we should stop them. Because if they're willing to put any actual effort into it, the right way is to post that same item to the mailing list where it can be discussed. If it survives such discussion (very possibly in a modified form) *then* it belongs on a TODO list. The first problem with a wiki TODO is that it will not reflect any sort of community consensus, only the opinions of whoever edited the page last. The second problem is that setting it up represents a unilateral attempt to redefine (bypass?) the community's design/development process, which is a process that has served us well for many years and is not showing any signs of being broken. regards, tom lane ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-17 19:23 Andrew Dunstan <[email protected]> parent: Tom Lane <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 2 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Andrew Dunstan @ 2006-09-17 19:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Tom Lane <[email protected]>; +Cc: Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]>; Gregory Stark <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; pgsql-www; Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> Tom Lane wrote: > Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> writes: > >> On Sat, Sep 16, 2006 at 09:15:24PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote: >> >>> Fortunately, none of the real developers would have to pay any attention >>> to any such page ... and you can bet they wouldn't. >>> > > >> If someone wants to spend an afternoon putting up a coherent >> description of their wishlist item complete with possible problems and >> solutions, then I don't see why we should stop them. >> > > Because if they're willing to put any actual effort into it, the right > way is to post that same item to the mailing list where it can be > discussed. If it survives such discussion (very possibly in a modified > form) *then* it belongs on a TODO list. The first problem with a wiki > TODO is that it will not reflect any sort of community consensus, only > the opinions of whoever edited the page last. The second problem is > that setting it up represents a unilateral attempt to redefine (bypass?) > the community's design/development process, which is a process that has > served us well for many years and is not showing any signs of being > broken. > > > I agree with lots of this. Being slightly more abstract, we are grappling with a couple of different kinds of objects here: discussions and decisions. The mailing list is a very good way of having a discussion, and a wiki is IMNSHO a poor substitute. Ditto, bulletin board, web forum, blog ..... The reason is simply that with a mailing list all you need is a subscription to get the info delivered to you in a medium everybody uses. It's push, not pull, and that's very appealing. Any other mechanism requires the user to seek the location of the discussion actively to some degree. Conversely, the very unstructured nature of the mailing list(s) makes them a poor medium for capturing decisions. That's why some of us have advocated use of a tracker to capture decisions about development directions, because the TODO list doesn't seem appropriate. But an open wiki would be a horrible substitute for the TODO list - it would turn it from a list that reflects at least some discussion and consensus into a mere wish list of no authority whatsoever. IOW, it is the exact opposite of the direction I believe we should be headed. I use wikis in my work as a good way of capturing all sorts of information I want to keep. But I have generally found them to be less than successful as a way of capturing discussions or developing coherent bodies of technical information and decisions. Comparisons have been made with WikiPedia - they are inappropriate. Quite apart from anything else Wikipedia survives through the work of a huge team of editors who review the work of contributors. And they still run into trouble. We don't have the resources and we don't need the fights. So let's not go there. The only good purpose I can see for a developer wiki is as a place to publish information that is too large for the mailing lists. Currently we provide web and other space for a few users - a wiki would allow us to provide publishing facilities in a central spot for a significantly wider group of people, with very little cost. Tom proposed a modest roadmap type experiment a week or so ago. I'd like to see that pursued. After all, we know of some things that are at least at first cut stage for 8.3, and a few things high on may people's agenda. I'd also like to see some work done on using a tracker (for features as well as bugs). The rest of what's been talked about strikes me as wasted effort, to be honest. We seem to be running in a few directions which look like dead ends to me. Let's pick one or two strategically, and follow those instead. cheers andrew ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-17 19:32 Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]> parent: Andrew Dunstan <[email protected]> 1 sibling, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Joshua D. Drake @ 2006-09-17 19:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Andrew Dunstan <[email protected]>; +Cc: Tom Lane <[email protected]>; Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; Gregory Stark <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; pgsql-www; Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> > Tom proposed a modest roadmap type experiment a week or so ago. I'd like > to see that pursued. After all, we know of some things that are at least > at first cut stage for 8.3, and a few things high on may people's > agenda. I'd also like to see some work done on using a tracker (for > features as well as bugs). The rest of what's been talked about strikes > me as wasted effort, to be honest. We seem to be running in a few > directions which look like dead ends to me. Let's pick one or two > strategically, and follow those instead. There are a couple of people helping me with pgbugs.commandprompt.com. We could always use a couple more. Joshua D. Drake > > cheers > > andrew > -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-18 04:48 Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]> parent: Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Jim C. Nasby @ 2006-09-18 04:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]>; +Cc: Andrew Dunstan <[email protected]>; Tom Lane <[email protected]>; Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; Gregory Stark <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; pgsql-www; Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> On Sun, Sep 17, 2006 at 12:32:13PM -0700, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > >Tom proposed a modest roadmap type experiment a week or so ago. I'd like > >to see that pursued. After all, we know of some things that are at least > >at first cut stage for 8.3, and a few things high on may people's > >agenda. I'd also like to see some work done on using a tracker (for > >features as well as bugs). The rest of what's been talked about strikes > >me as wasted effort, to be honest. We seem to be running in a few > >directions which look like dead ends to me. Let's pick one or two > >strategically, and follow those instead. > > There are a couple of people helping me with pgbugs.commandprompt.com. > We could always use a couple more. Sorry if I missed an email, but help doing what? Are we actively trying to do something with that besides just play around with it (I'm already pretty well-aware of bugzilla's capabilities...) -- Jim Nasby [email protected] EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com 512.569.9461 (cell) ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-18 05:24 Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]> parent: Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Joshua D. Drake @ 2006-09-18 05:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>; +Cc: Andrew Dunstan <[email protected]>; Tom Lane <[email protected]>; Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; Gregory Stark <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; pgsql-www; Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> Jim C. Nasby wrote: > On Sun, Sep 17, 2006 at 12:32:13PM -0700, Joshua D. Drake wrote: >>> Tom proposed a modest roadmap type experiment a week or so ago. I'd like >>> to see that pursued. After all, we know of some things that are at least >>> at first cut stage for 8.3, and a few things high on may people's >>> agenda. I'd also like to see some work done on using a tracker (for >>> features as well as bugs). The rest of what's been talked about strikes >>> me as wasted effort, to be honest. We seem to be running in a few >>> directions which look like dead ends to me. Let's pick one or two >>> strategically, and follow those instead. >> There are a couple of people helping me with pgbugs.commandprompt.com. >> We could always use a couple more. > > Sorry if I missed an email, but help doing what? Are we actively trying > to do something with that besides just play around with it (I'm already > pretty well-aware of bugzilla's capabilities...) Well yes, we are trying to use it :). If it becomes useful enough, we hope that the project as a whole will move to it. If it isn't useful enough, then we can say "We have actually tried it for the project, it didn't work." Joshua D. Drake -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-18 12:44 Jim Nasby <[email protected]> parent: Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Jim Nasby @ 2006-09-18 12:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]>; +Cc: Andrew Dunstan <[email protected]>; Tom Lane <[email protected]>; Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; Gregory Stark <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; pgsql-www; Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> Ok, so what is it you need help with? On Sep 18, 2006, at 1:24 AM, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Jim C. Nasby wrote: >> On Sun, Sep 17, 2006 at 12:32:13PM -0700, Joshua D. Drake wrote: >>>> Tom proposed a modest roadmap type experiment a week or so ago. >>>> I'd like to see that pursued. After all, we know of some things >>>> that are at least at first cut stage for 8.3, and a few things >>>> high on may people's agenda. I'd also like to see some work done >>>> on using a tracker (for features as well as bugs). The rest of >>>> what's been talked about strikes me as wasted effort, to be >>>> honest. We seem to be running in a few directions which look >>>> like dead ends to me. Let's pick one or two strategically, and >>>> follow those instead. >>> There are a couple of people helping me with >>> pgbugs.commandprompt.com. We could always use a couple more. >> Sorry if I missed an email, but help doing what? Are we actively >> trying >> to do something with that besides just play around with it (I'm >> already >> pretty well-aware of bugzilla's capabilities...) > > Well yes, we are trying to use it :). If it becomes useful enough, > we hope that the project as a whole will move to it. If it isn't > useful enough, then we can say "We have actually tried it for the > project, it didn't work." > > Joshua D. Drake > > > -- > > === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === > Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 > Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 > http://www.commandprompt.com/ > > -- Jim Nasby [email protected] EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com 512.569.9461 (cell) ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-18 13:34 Andrew Dunstan <[email protected]> parent: Jim Nasby <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Andrew Dunstan @ 2006-09-18 13:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jim Nasby <[email protected]>; +Cc: Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]>; Tom Lane <[email protected]>; Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>; Gregory Stark <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; pgsql-www; Neil Conway <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> Jim Nasby wrote: > Ok, so what is it you need help with? see previous discussion about what is required to keep a tracker system healthy. In particular: . items appearing in other media need to be put in the tracker . items entered in the tracker need to be regularly triaged, reviewed and updated. Systems lacking this amount of TLC rapidly become useless, and in fact unused. Also, if we are in fact going to use bz, there is probably some dev work that should be done to improve/extend its email functionality, to make it fit the way we do business better. cheers andrew > > On Sep 18, 2006, at 1:24 AM, Joshua D. Drake wrote: > >> Jim C. Nasby wrote: >>> On Sun, Sep 17, 2006 at 12:32:13PM -0700, Joshua D. Drake wrote: >>>>> Tom proposed a modest roadmap type experiment a week or so ago. >>>>> I'd like to see that pursued. After all, we know of some things >>>>> that are at least at first cut stage for 8.3, and a few things >>>>> high on may people's agenda. I'd also like to see some work done >>>>> on using a tracker (for features as well as bugs). The rest of >>>>> what's been talked about strikes me as wasted effort, to be >>>>> honest. We seem to be running in a few directions which look like >>>>> dead ends to me. Let's pick one or two strategically, and follow >>>>> those instead. >>>> There are a couple of people helping me with >>>> pgbugs.commandprompt.com. We could always use a couple more. >>> Sorry if I missed an email, but help doing what? Are we actively trying >>> to do something with that besides just play around with it (I'm already >>> pretty well-aware of bugzilla's capabilities...) >> >> Well yes, we are trying to use it :). If it becomes useful enough, we >> hope that the project as a whole will move to it. If it isn't useful >> enough, then we can say "We have actually tried it for the project, >> it didn't work." > > ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-www] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-18 13:49 Lukas Kahwe Smith <[email protected]> parent: Andrew Dunstan <[email protected]> 1 sibling, 2 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Lukas Kahwe Smith @ 2006-09-18 13:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Andrew Dunstan <[email protected]> Andrew Dunstan wrote: > Being slightly more abstract, we are grappling with a couple of > different kinds of objects here: discussions and decisions. The mailing > list is a very good way of having a discussion, and a wiki is IMNSHO a > poor substitute. Ditto, bulletin board, web forum, blog ..... The > reason is simply that with a mailing list all you need is a subscription > to get the info delivered to you in a medium everybody uses. It's push, > not pull, and that's very appealing. Any other mechanism requires the > user to seek the location of the discussion actively to some degree. > Conversely, the very unstructured nature of the mailing list(s) makes > them a poor medium for capturing decisions. That's why some of us have > advocated use of a tracker to capture decisions about development > directions, because the TODO list doesn't seem appropriate. But an open > wiki would be a horrible substitute for the TODO list - it would turn it > from a list that reflects at least some discussion and consensus into a > mere wish list of no authority whatsoever. IOW, it is the exact opposite > of the direction I believe we should be headed. I agree pretty much. However I disagree that a wiki is not useful to summarize discussion from the mailinglist. All that it needs is people that are humble and do not push their own agendas. If necessary they should discuss their summaries with members of both/all sides of a given discussion and with members of the core group. regards, Lukas ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-www] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-18 14:42 Lukas Kahwe Smith <[email protected]> parent: Lukas Kahwe Smith <[email protected]> 1 sibling, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Lukas Kahwe Smith @ 2006-09-18 14:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Andrew Dunstan <[email protected]> Andrew Dunstan wrote: > Well, of course, the internet is renowned for its preponderance of > people overburdened with humility and fairness. :-) I think if you ask the php development team the chances are high that they will agree that I have done exactly that for the PHP todo list. > Seriously, what will be the point? It strikes me as likely to be a huge > amount of wasted effort. If the wiki is updated by others then they will > be using the wrong forum (should be on the mailing list). And I suspect > nobody much will use it to look for anything. The point is that you no longer argue in circles, do not have to use the ever intimitating "read the archives" (which buys newcomers nothing since archives are essentially useless if you are trying to understand the contents of a lengthy discussion you did not partcipate in yourself) and give people some transparency. > As for the TODO list, its items belong in a tracker, IMNSHO, as feature > items (as opposed to bugs). So exactly what would go on a wiki? ISTM we > are in danger of wanting to use technology because we like it, rather > than because it is appropriate. The problem with a tracker is that again like complicated mailinglist threads, they rarely summarize things. Since most trackers are not threaded, they are less confusing to read up afterwards, but at the same time due to lack of threading they are less useful at discussing the issue. So imho a tracker is nice to make it very easy to query the status of a giving issue (fixed in branch xyz etc), a mailing list is great for discussions and a wiki is great for summarizing discussions. The wiki can be linked to inside the tracker/mailinglist. regards, Lukas PS: Did you intentionally only reply to me? ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-www] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-18 14:51 Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> parent: Lukas Kahwe Smith <[email protected]> 1 sibling, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Martijn van Oosterhout @ 2006-09-18 14:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Lukas Kahwe Smith <[email protected]>; +Cc: Andrew Dunstan <[email protected]>; [email protected] On Mon, Sep 18, 2006 at 03:49:29PM +0200, Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: > I agree pretty much. However I disagree that a wiki is not useful to > summarize discussion from the mailinglist. All that it needs is people > that are humble and do not push their own agendas. If necessary they > should discuss their summaries with members of both/all sides of a given > discussion and with members of the core group. It would be helpful if people commented on the stuff already there and said if it's good, bad or otherwise. Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> http://svana.org/kleptog/ > From each according to his ability. To each according to his ability to litigate. Attachments: [application/pgp-signature] signature.asc (189B, 2-signature.asc) download ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-www] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-19 16:52 Lukas Kahwe Smith <[email protected]> parent: Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Lukas Kahwe Smith @ 2006-09-19 16:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> Martijn van Oosterhout wrote: > On Mon, Sep 18, 2006 at 03:49:29PM +0200, Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: >> I agree pretty much. However I disagree that a wiki is not useful to >> summarize discussion from the mailinglist. All that it needs is people >> that are humble and do not push their own agendas. If necessary they >> should discuss their summaries with members of both/all sides of a given >> discussion and with members of the core group. > > It would be helpful if people commented on the stuff already there and > said if it's good, bad or otherwise. I just looked through the wiki. Generally I like whats there. It seems the approach taken is essentially that the unofficial todo items contain a current brain dump on the steps taken so far, the status and future work. So if any "busy bees" would want to join in and help, they would just keep close contact with the person that is working on the todo item. I think this is a great basis to make it easier for other people to join in and should be a solid basis for turning this into "official" todo items. The ICU todo item will maybe also become a good test bed for how to build up a document at the very early stages, where there will still be a lot of discussions on the mailinglists. Thinking a head (and maybe too far then we really need to at this point): So how will this work once they become "official". I assume Bruce's todo list would then link to the wiki and the editing would become more conservative? Would the status get frozen? I assume that if the given functionality is expanded/changed in future releases then it would be done in the same document? Or would a new document be startet to detail the new development process that would simply optionally list previous documents? regards, Lukas ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-www] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-19 17:05 Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> parent: Lukas Kahwe Smith <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Martijn van Oosterhout @ 2006-09-19 17:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Lukas Kahwe Smith <[email protected]>; +Cc: [email protected] On Tue, Sep 19, 2006 at 06:52:59PM +0200, Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: > Thinking a head (and maybe too far then we really need to at this > point): So how will this work once they become "official". I assume > Bruce's todo list would then link to the wiki and the editing would > become more conservative? Would the status get frozen? I assume that if > the given functionality is expanded/changed in future releases then it > would be done in the same document? Or would a new document be startet > to detail the new development process that would simply optionally list > previous documents? Unsure. I know twiki has the possibility to add a tag to a page that restricts the users that can edit a page. I assume the same could be used here somewhere, though I am unsure how. I'm not sure it's a real problem though. What's the risk? That someone will add something to the wiki that confuses people? At the end of the day it's the patch that gets reviewed, not the wiki page. Once the patch is in it's just historical interest I guess... Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> http://svana.org/kleptog/ > From each according to his ability. To each according to his ability to litigate. Attachments: [application/pgp-signature] signature.asc (189B, 2-signature.asc) download ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-20 10:28 Markus Schaber <[email protected]> parent: Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> 3 siblings, 1 reply; 45+ messages in thread From: Markus Schaber @ 2006-09-20 10:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ; +Cc: pgsql-www; [email protected] <[email protected]> Hi, Martijn, Martijn van Oosterhout wrote: > 2. I can see the official todo list being in CVS, which gives it all > the access protection it needs. A wiki todo list can stay where it is, > just that it's not official. > > [I've just made a reference to the TODO list in CVS from the wiki, that > should help]. Maybe you should rename the public writable Wiki page list to Wishlist instead of Todo, to make the difference more explicit. Thanks, Markus -- Markus Schaber | Logical Tracking&Tracing International AG Dipl. Inf. | Software Development GIS Fight against software patents in Europe! www.ffii.org www.nosoftwarepatents.org Attachments: [application/pgp-signature] signature.asc (252B, 2-signature.asc) download ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-20 11:16 Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> parent: Markus Schaber <[email protected]> 0 siblings, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Martijn van Oosterhout @ 2006-09-20 11:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Markus Schaber <[email protected]>; +Cc: pgsql-www; [email protected] <[email protected]> On Wed, Sep 20, 2006 at 12:28:54PM +0200, Markus Schaber wrote: > Maybe you should rename the public writable Wiki page list to Wishlist > instead of Todo, to make the difference more explicit. Hmm, all the stuff there now does refer to things that are on the TODO list (I think). So it's not wishlist at all, it's the *detail* that's unoffical. But you're right, it'd probably be a good idea to make a section for absolutly wishlist stuff. I just can't think of any right now, the TODO list is quite extensive. In any case I've altered the wording a bit to make the distinction a bit clearer. Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> http://svana.org/kleptog/ > From each according to his ability. To each according to his ability to litigate. Attachments: [application/pgp-signature] signature.asc (189B, 2-signature.asc) download ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-27 08:40 Lukas Kahwe Smith <[email protected]> parent: Dave Page <[email protected]> 1 sibling, 2 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Lukas Kahwe Smith @ 2006-09-27 08:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dave Page <[email protected]> Dave Page wrote: > I have now moved the wiki installation to: > > http://developer.postgresql.org/ BTW: I am wondering if there is an RSS feed of the changes? On my wiki I have an RSS feed for every page, subwiki (aka area) and the entire wiki people can subscribe to: http://oss.backendmedia.com/rss.php?area=PHPTODO&page=HomePage http://oss.backendmedia.com/rss.php?area=PHPTODO http://oss.backendmedia.com/rss.php regards, Lukas ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-27 08:49 Jeremy Drake <[email protected]> parent: Lukas Kahwe Smith <[email protected]> 1 sibling, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Jeremy Drake @ 2006-09-27 08:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Lukas Kahwe Smith <[email protected]>; +Cc: Dave Page <[email protected]>; PostgreSQL Hackers <[email protected]> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: > Dave Page wrote: > > I have now moved the wiki installation to: > > > > http://developer.postgresql.org/ > > BTW: I am wondering if there is an RSS feed of the changes? > > On my wiki I have an RSS feed for every page, subwiki (aka area) and the > entire wiki people can subscribe to: > http://oss.backendmedia.com/rss.php?area=PHPTODO&page=HomePage > http://oss.backendmedia.com/rss.php?area=PHPTODO > http://oss.backendmedia.com/rss.php I only really know of the entire wiki one, but that's the only one I have ever wanted to do. I think it may be able to limit to namespaces, but I am not sure about that. http://developer.postgresql.org/index.php?title=Special:Recentchanges&feed=rss There are a bunch of knobs on the Special:Recentchanges page which could apply also to the rss version, but I have never tried it and they may not, I don't know. > > regards, > Lukas > -- Besides the device, the box should contain: * Eight little rectangular snippets of paper that say "WARNING" * A plastic packet containing four 5/17 inch pilfer grommets and two club-ended 6/93 inch boxcar prawns. YOU WILL NEED TO SUPPLY: a matrix wrench and 60,000 feet of tram cable. IF ANYTHING IS DAMAGED OR MISSING: You IMMEDIATELY should turn to your spouse and say: "Margaret, you know why this country can't make a car that can get all the way through the drive-through at Burger King without a major transmission overhaul? Because nobody cares, that's why." WARNING: This is assuming your spouse's name is Margaret. -- Dave Barry, "Read This First!" ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
* Re: Developer's Wiki @ 2006-09-27 08:50 Magnus Hagander <[email protected]> parent: Lukas Kahwe Smith <[email protected]> 1 sibling, 0 replies; 45+ messages in thread From: Magnus Hagander @ 2006-09-27 08:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Lukas Kahwe Smith <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; [email protected] > > I have now moved the wiki installation to: > > > > http://developer.postgresql.org/ > > BTW: I am wondering if there is an RSS feed of the changes? There is. http://developer.postgresql.org/index.php?title=Special:Recentchanges&fe ed=rss //Magnus ^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 45+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2006-09-27 08:50 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 45+ messages (download: mbox mbox.gz follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2006-09-02 19:33 Developer's Wiki Dave Page <[email protected]> 2006-09-02 22:08 ` Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> 2006-09-04 03:30 ` Neil Conway <[email protected]> 2006-09-04 06:11 ` Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> 2006-09-16 19:25 ` Josh Berkus <[email protected]> 2006-09-16 19:40 ` Gregory Stark <[email protected]> 2006-09-16 20:09 ` Josh Berkus <[email protected]> 2006-09-16 23:21 ` Gregory Stark <[email protected]> 2006-09-17 00:02 ` Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]> 2006-09-17 01:15 ` Tom Lane <[email protected]> 2006-09-17 10:05 ` Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> 2006-09-17 13:14 ` Magnus Hagander <[email protected]> 2006-09-17 14:42 ` Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]> 2006-09-17 14:31 ` Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]> 2006-09-17 14:45 ` Gregory Stark <[email protected]> 2006-09-17 15:51 ` Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]> 2006-09-17 18:25 ` Tom Lane <[email protected]> 2006-09-17 19:23 ` Andrew Dunstan <[email protected]> 2006-09-17 19:32 ` Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]> 2006-09-18 04:48 ` Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]> 2006-09-18 05:24 ` Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]> 2006-09-18 12:44 ` Jim Nasby <[email protected]> 2006-09-18 13:34 ` Andrew Dunstan <[email protected]> 2006-09-18 13:49 ` Lukas Kahwe Smith <[email protected]> 2006-09-18 14:42 ` Lukas Kahwe Smith <[email protected]> 2006-09-18 14:51 ` Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> 2006-09-19 16:52 ` Lukas Kahwe Smith <[email protected]> 2006-09-19 17:05 ` Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> 2006-09-20 10:28 ` Markus Schaber <[email protected]> 2006-09-20 11:16 ` Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> 2006-09-17 13:13 ` Magnus Hagander <[email protected]> 2006-09-17 14:41 ` Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]> 2006-09-17 14:47 ` Magnus Hagander <[email protected]> 2006-09-17 13:09 ` Magnus Hagander <[email protected]> 2006-09-17 13:20 ` Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]> 2006-09-17 13:22 ` Magnus Hagander <[email protected]> 2006-09-17 15:15 ` Re: [HACKERS] Developer`s Wiki Greg Sabino Mullane <[email protected]> 2006-09-17 17:16 ` Md.Abdul Aziz <[email protected]> 2006-09-16 20:27 ` Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]> 2006-09-16 23:07 ` Lukas Kahwe Smith <[email protected]> 2006-09-27 08:40 ` Lukas Kahwe Smith <[email protected]> 2006-09-27 08:49 ` Jeremy Drake <[email protected]> 2006-09-27 08:50 ` Magnus Hagander <[email protected]> 2006-09-02 22:46 Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki Dave Page <[email protected]> 2006-09-03 21:36 ` Martijn van Oosterhout <[email protected]>
This inbox is served by agora; see mirroring instructions for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox