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* SAP and MySQL ...
@ 2003-05-25 19:37 Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 44+ messages in thread
From: Hans-Jürgen Schönig @ 2003-05-25 19:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: pgsql-hackers
This is what I have seen in the SAP DB mailing list this weekend ...
Maybe all of us should have some fun.
SAP has finally gone completely insane.
I can already see Monty on every SAP advertisment *nocomment*.
This is the worst thing I have ever seen.
Hans
SAP bets on MySQL
The software giant SAP entered a partnership with the Swedish database
developer MvSQL AB. Objective of this collaboration is the unified(?)
development of a new Open-Source database system for Enterprise
applications. This move fits well into the concept of SAP to reduce the
commercial importance of database server.
....
<snip> some general words about MySQL & SAPDB </snip>
....
After a multi-year collaboration and based on both products (MySQL & SAPDB),
a new server shall be developed. [Grammatically, it isn't 100% clear if this
"multi-year collaboration" refers to the past of to something that has yet
to come]. "The primary responsibility of the development lies at MySQL",
declares SAP speaker Karl-Heinz Hess in a newsletter. Support for the
database will be divided between MySQL & SAPDB. As a side-effect SAP will
gain open access to the giant community of MySQL specialists and developers.
Until the new system is finished, the current SAPDB will be continued in
Walldorf, but under the name MySQL. The new branding shall expressively be
the only change that current SAPDB user have to get accustomed with.</end>
....
--
Cybertec Geschwinde u Schoenig
Ludo-Hartmannplatz 1/14, A-1160 Vienna, Austria
Tel: +43/2952/30706; +43/664/233 90 75
www.cybertec.at, www.postgresql.at, kernel.cybertec.at
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: SAP and MySQL ...
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
@ 2003-05-26 13:50 ` Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 44+ messages in thread
From: Tommi Maekitalo @ 2003-05-26 13:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: pgsql-hackers
Hi,
There was a german article in heise news. See
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/hps-23.05.03-000/.
MySQL gets stored procedures and transactions and all the nice features, you
need for a real database (and postgresql already has) by throwing the code
away an replacing it with sapdb.
Tommi
Am Sonntag, 25. Mai 2003 21:37 schrieb Hans-Jürgen Schönig:
> This is what I have seen in the SAP DB mailing list this weekend ...
> Maybe all of us should have some fun.
>
> SAP has finally gone completely insane.
> I can already see Monty on every SAP advertisment *nocomment*.
> This is the worst thing I have ever seen.
>
> Hans
>
>
> SAP bets on MySQL
> The software giant SAP entered a partnership with the Swedish database
> developer MvSQL AB. Objective of this collaboration is the unified(?)
> development of a new Open-Source database system for Enterprise
> applications. This move fits well into the concept of SAP to reduce the
> commercial importance of database server.
>
> ....
> <snip> some general words about MySQL & SAPDB </snip>
> ....
>
> After a multi-year collaboration and based on both products (MySQL &
> SAPDB), a new server shall be developed. [Grammatically, it isn't 100%
> clear if this "multi-year collaboration" refers to the past of to something
> that has yet to come]. "The primary responsibility of the development lies
> at MySQL", declares SAP speaker Karl-Heinz Hess in a newsletter. Support
> for the database will be divided between MySQL & SAPDB. As a side-effect
> SAP will gain open access to the giant community of MySQL specialists and
> developers.
>
> Until the new system is finished, the current SAPDB will be continued in
> Walldorf, but under the name MySQL. The new branding shall expressively be
> the only change that current SAPDB user have to get accustomed with.</end>
> ....
--
Dr. Eckhardt + Partner GmbH
http://www.epgmbh.de
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: SAP and MySQL ...
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-04 19:25 ` Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 05:52 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: Jan Wieck @ 2003-06-04 19:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>; +Cc: pgsql-hackers
Tommi Maekitalo wrote:
> Hi,
>
> There was a german article in heise news. See
> http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/hps-23.05.03-000/.
>
> MySQL gets stored procedures and transactions and all the nice features, you
> need for a real database (and postgresql already has) by throwing the code
> away an replacing it with sapdb.
Hardly.
SAP failed on the attempt to open source ADABAS even more miserably than
Borland with Interbase. Now it looks like they found someone who said
"we know open source, we can do that, oh pick me, me, me, pick meeeeee!"
MySQL on the other hand has for sure a big user community and is one of
the favorite open source projects of the IT press. What all the
lemming-like humpty-dumpty article writers fail to understand is the
difference between a user- and a core developer community. The latter
mainly consists of 2 people in the MySQL case, Monty and David.
I doubt that those two can drop the support for the existing MySQL user
base anytime soon. And while sure converting everything from MySQL to
SAPDB would be a good idea, there are probably more people in the world
who know how to convert MySQL to PostgreSQL than to SAPDB ... hehe.
Jan
>
>
> Tommi
>
>
> Am Sonntag, 25. Mai 2003 21:37 schrieb Hans-Jürgen Schönig:
>> This is what I have seen in the SAP DB mailing list this weekend ...
>> Maybe all of us should have some fun.
>>
>> SAP has finally gone completely insane.
>> I can already see Monty on every SAP advertisment *nocomment*.
>> This is the worst thing I have ever seen.
>>
>> Hans
>>
>>
>> SAP bets on MySQL
>> The software giant SAP entered a partnership with the Swedish database
>> developer MvSQL AB. Objective of this collaboration is the unified(?)
>> development of a new Open-Source database system for Enterprise
>> applications. This move fits well into the concept of SAP to reduce the
>> commercial importance of database server.
>>
>> ....
>> <snip> some general words about MySQL & SAPDB </snip>
>> ....
>>
>> After a multi-year collaboration and based on both products (MySQL &
>> SAPDB), a new server shall be developed. [Grammatically, it isn't 100%
>> clear if this "multi-year collaboration" refers to the past of to something
>> that has yet to come]. "The primary responsibility of the development lies
>> at MySQL", declares SAP speaker Karl-Heinz Hess in a newsletter. Support
>> for the database will be divided between MySQL & SAPDB. As a side-effect
>> SAP will gain open access to the giant community of MySQL specialists and
>> developers.
>>
>> Until the new system is finished, the current SAPDB will be continued in
>> Walldorf, but under the name MySQL. The new branding shall expressively be
>> the only change that current SAPDB user have to get accustomed with.</end>
>> ....
>
--
#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
#================================================== [email protected] #
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: SAP and MySQL ...
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-05 05:52 ` Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: Hans-Jürgen Schönig @ 2003-06-05 05:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jan Wieck <[email protected]>; +Cc: Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>; pgsql-hackers
> Hardly.
>
> SAP failed on the attempt to open source ADABAS even more miserably than
> Borland with Interbase. Now it looks like they found someone who said
> "we know open source, we can do that, oh pick me, me, me, pick meeeeee!"
that's what i think as well.
by the way: did you see that MySQL AB has got $19.5mio of new cash.
> MySQL on the other hand has for sure a big user community and is one of
> the favorite open source projects of the IT press. What all the
> lemming-like humpty-dumpty article writers fail to understand is the
> difference between a user- and a core developer community. The latter
> mainly consists of 2 people in the MySQL case, Monty and David.
i think i haven't seen a single patch for SAP DB on the mailing list in
months. i don't think they have a single open source developer.
we thought chosing SAP DB as a second database platform (just to be more
independent from PostgreSQL) would be a good idea. we have invested a
lot of time to find out that they cannot compete with PostgreSQL.
Writing precompiler code was painful. Thanks to Michael Meskes and
others doing it for PostgreSQL is easy.
We tried to port stored procedures returning cursors but it took me a
week to find out how to ACCESS this cursor returned by the stored procedure.
i tried to install SAP DB on RedHat - it did not even start.
have fun, Monty ;).
> I doubt that those two can drop the support for the existing MySQL user
> base anytime soon. And while sure converting everything from MySQL to
> SAPDB would be a good idea, there are probably more people in the world
> who know how to convert MySQL to PostgreSQL than to SAPDB ... hehe.
exactly. converting to sap db is some sort of pain. not so much the data
but things such as stored procedures and so forth.
still, i think selling postgresql might be more difficult in the future
because "you don't have real features" won't work that nicely anymore.
let's hope for the best and let's hope that we can keep kicking their
butts in the future.
Regards,
Hans @ MySQL free zone
--
Cybertec Geschwinde u Schoenig
Ludo-Hartmannplatz 1/14, A-1160 Vienna, Austria
Tel: +43/2952/30706; +43/664/233 90 75
www.cybertec.at, www.postgresql.at, kernel.cybertec.at
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-05 21:22 ` Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 44+ messages in thread
From: Ron Mayer @ 2003-06-05 21:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jan Wieck <[email protected]>; +Cc: postgres list <[email protected]>
Jan wrote [to hackers, but I moved it to general (sorry in advance if that
was bad)]:
>
>SAP failed on the attempt to open source ADABAS even more miserably than
>Borland with Interbase. Now it looks like they found someone who said
>"we know open source, we can do that, oh pick me, me, me, pick meeeeee!"
I wonder if the SAP deal is related to the $19.5 million round of
venture capital MySQL AB just raised:
http://seattle.bizjournals.com/seattle/stories/2003/06/02/daily19.html
"2003-06-04...
Open-source data firm raises $19.5 million
A Swedish open-source database developer with U.S. offices in Seattle
has raised $19.5 million to continue its advance into the database
market.
MySQL AB said its backers were led by Benchmark Capital of Palo Alto,
Calif.,...
"
Could be the investors wanted to see closer business ties, and SAP's a nice
big business to have close ties to.
Ron
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-06 12:46 ` Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 44+ messages in thread
From: Jan Wieck @ 2003-06-06 12:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ron Mayer <[email protected]>; +Cc: postgres list <[email protected]>
Ron Mayer wrote:
> Jan wrote [to hackers, but I moved it to general (sorry in advance if that
> was bad)]:
>>
>>SAP failed on the attempt to open source ADABAS even more miserably than
>>Borland with Interbase. Now it looks like they found someone who said
>>"we know open source, we can do that, oh pick me, me, me, pick meeeeee!"
>
> I wonder if the SAP deal is related to the $19.5 million round of
> venture capital MySQL AB just raised:
>
> http://seattle.bizjournals.com/seattle/stories/2003/06/02/daily19.html
> "2003-06-04...
The IMHO important quote in that article is
He [Marten Mickos] added, "With the funds from Benchmark and others,
we can ramp up our commercial business while continuing to support
the open source community."
Pretty clear to me that the open source track looses importance in their
business model - if it ever was of any importance other than being a
marketing gag. They want to ramp up the commercial business.
I wonder what happens with all those big companies they list as current
MySQL users when they pull out their only DB server know how to develop
this new MySQL DB. SAP's declared intention is to get something that
supports their product line ... so it's gotta be incompatible with the
existing MySQL. Or is it going to be that Monty continues MySQL and they
ramp up a new team for the new DB?
These big customers have paid license fees for commercial use. I don't
know, but I wouldn't want to be in that line of fire when MySQL
announces that support for the existing technology will be discontinued
and porting to MyNewSQL is strongly recommended.
Jan
>
> Open-source data firm raises $19.5 million
>
> A Swedish open-source database developer with U.S. offices in Seattle
> has raised $19.5 million to continue its advance into the database
> market.
>
> MySQL AB said its backers were led by Benchmark Capital of Palo Alto,
> Calif.,...
> "
>
> Could be the investors wanted to see closer business ties, and SAP's a nice
> big business to have close ties to.
>
> Ron
--
#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
#================================================== [email protected] #
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-09 22:22 ` Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-10 15:00 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] scott.marlowe <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:28 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 3 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: Ian Linwood @ 2003-06-09 22:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: [email protected]
Hello Jan,
Friday, June 6, 2003, 9:12:24 PM, you wrote:
> I think Open Source means more than that. It means especially Open for
> ideas, open for input. Open for people and companies to join the team,
> contribute and take part in the decision making. That all is totally
> impossible in the MySQL project. Not because it could not be done, but
> because the owner of the commercial product MySQL does not want it to
> happen.
Although this is an entirely valid opinion. I don't 100% agree with
this point of view.
Just because a project is open source (OS), doesn't mean that all and
sundry should have an input.
OS projects should be open to offers of contribution, but projects should
reserve the right to reject that contribution.
This seems, IMO, to be a plague in OS development. I clique of
developers (regardless of how talented) or an individual, completely
wrecks a project because they want to ensure their ideas are adopted.
OS projects and closed source projects (or any other project for
this matter) needs clear leadership, with someone willing to say yes
or NO.
Open source development is littered with shouting matches leading to
forks, and general fcuk ups. This sometimes works for the better,
unfortunately, most times it doesn't.
I'm painting a pretty black picture and possibly giving you the opinion
that I do not approve of OS development...nothing could be further from
the truth. But I do think we need to get away from the *revisionism*
((c)Mao Tse-tung) that you seem to have fallen into.
Please do not take offence at any comment I make - none are intended.
Things are starting to get interesting... ;-)
--
Best regards,
Ian
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-10 15:00 ` scott.marlowe <[email protected]>
2 siblings, 0 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: scott.marlowe @ 2003-06-10 15:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
On Mon, 9 Jun 2003, Ian Linwood wrote:
> Hello Jan,
>
> Friday, June 6, 2003, 9:12:24 PM, you wrote:
>
> > I think Open Source means more than that. It means especially Open for
> > ideas, open for input. Open for people and companies to join the team,
> > contribute and take part in the decision making. That all is totally
> > impossible in the MySQL project. Not because it could not be done, but
> > because the owner of the commercial product MySQL does not want it to
> > happen.
>
> Although this is an entirely valid opinion. I don't 100% agree with
> this point of view.
>
> Just because a project is open source (OS), doesn't mean that all and
> sundry should have an input.
While I agree with you on this point, the real issue behind MySQL is that
the native connection library is GPL (not LGPL) so that IF you link your
software to MySQL's connection library, you either have to GPL your own
commercial code or buy a commercial MySQL license.
In order to maintain this setup, MySQL requires that anyone who donates
code sign over their copyright to MySQL AB. MySQL AB then uses that same
code someone else wrote to make money by selling the commercial licensed
version.
So, in my opinion, MySQL is GPL in name only. Until someone else forks it
and maintains it as a pure GPL product, I'll avoid it.
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-11 15:52 ` Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2 siblings, 1 reply; 44+ messages in thread
From: Jim C. Nasby @ 2003-06-11 15:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: [email protected]
I suggest anyone who's interested in how to organize an open source
project take a look at FreeBSD. It's the best run project I know of,
especially considering there's basically no corporate sponsorship.
In a nutshell, there's a community of a few hundred developers who have
commit access. Each year, they elect an executive board that oversees
the project as a whole. This does a great job of ensuring that no single
person can bully the project around, and it results it code that's much
better thought out, imho.
Hopefully someday pgsql will have enough developers to warrant such a
model. :)
On Mon, Jun 09, 2003 at 11:22:08PM +0100, Ian Linwood wrote:
> Hello Jan,
>
> Friday, June 6, 2003, 9:12:24 PM, you wrote:
>
> > I think Open Source means more than that. It means especially Open for
> > ideas, open for input. Open for people and companies to join the team,
> > contribute and take part in the decision making. That all is totally
> > impossible in the MySQL project. Not because it could not be done, but
> > because the owner of the commercial product MySQL does not want it to
> > happen.
>
> Although this is an entirely valid opinion. I don't 100% agree with
> this point of view.
>
> Just because a project is open source (OS), doesn't mean that all and
> sundry should have an input.
>
> OS projects should be open to offers of contribution, but projects should
> reserve the right to reject that contribution.
>
> This seems, IMO, to be a plague in OS development. I clique of
> developers (regardless of how talented) or an individual, completely
> wrecks a project because they want to ensure their ideas are adopted.
>
> OS projects and closed source projects (or any other project for
> this matter) needs clear leadership, with someone willing to say yes
> or NO.
>
> Open source development is littered with shouting matches leading to
> forks, and general fcuk ups. This sometimes works for the better,
> unfortunately, most times it doesn't.
>
> I'm painting a pretty black picture and possibly giving you the opinion
> that I do not approve of OS development...nothing could be further from
> the truth. But I do think we need to get away from the *revisionism*
> ((c)Mao Tse-tung) that you seem to have fallen into.
>
> Please do not take offence at any comment I make - none are intended.
> Things are starting to get interesting... ;-)
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Ian
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
>
> http://archives.postgresql.org
>
--
Jim C. Nasby (aka Decibel!) [email protected]
Member: Triangle Fraternity, Sports Car Club of America
Give your computer some brain candy! www.distributed.net Team #1828
Windows: "Where do you want to go today?"
Linux: "Where do you want to go tomorrow?"
FreeBSD: "Are you guys coming, or what?"
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-11 16:24 ` Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 13:21 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: Bruce Momjian @ 2003-06-11 16:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: [email protected]; +Cc: [email protected]
I assume we don't want to mimick FreeBSD's infighting.
I don't have any problem with doing voting, but I will say that the
stated PostgreSQL core leadership goal, "to do as little as possible",
has served us well.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim C. Nasby wrote:
> I suggest anyone who's interested in how to organize an open source
> project take a look at FreeBSD. It's the best run project I know of,
> especially considering there's basically no corporate sponsorship.
>
> In a nutshell, there's a community of a few hundred developers who have
> commit access. Each year, they elect an executive board that oversees
> the project as a whole. This does a great job of ensuring that no single
> person can bully the project around, and it results it code that's much
> better thought out, imho.
>
> Hopefully someday pgsql will have enough developers to warrant such a
> model. :)
>
> On Mon, Jun 09, 2003 at 11:22:08PM +0100, Ian Linwood wrote:
> > Hello Jan,
> >
> > Friday, June 6, 2003, 9:12:24 PM, you wrote:
> >
> > > I think Open Source means more than that. It means especially Open for
> > > ideas, open for input. Open for people and companies to join the team,
> > > contribute and take part in the decision making. That all is totally
> > > impossible in the MySQL project. Not because it could not be done, but
> > > because the owner of the commercial product MySQL does not want it to
> > > happen.
> >
> > Although this is an entirely valid opinion. I don't 100% agree with
> > this point of view.
> >
> > Just because a project is open source (OS), doesn't mean that all and
> > sundry should have an input.
> >
> > OS projects should be open to offers of contribution, but projects should
> > reserve the right to reject that contribution.
> >
> > This seems, IMO, to be a plague in OS development. I clique of
> > developers (regardless of how talented) or an individual, completely
> > wrecks a project because they want to ensure their ideas are adopted.
> >
> > OS projects and closed source projects (or any other project for
> > this matter) needs clear leadership, with someone willing to say yes
> > or NO.
> >
> > Open source development is littered with shouting matches leading to
> > forks, and general fcuk ups. This sometimes works for the better,
> > unfortunately, most times it doesn't.
> >
> > I'm painting a pretty black picture and possibly giving you the opinion
> > that I do not approve of OS development...nothing could be further from
> > the truth. But I do think we need to get away from the *revisionism*
> > ((c)Mao Tse-tung) that you seem to have fallen into.
> >
> > Please do not take offence at any comment I make - none are intended.
> > Things are starting to get interesting... ;-)
> >
> >
> > --
> > Best regards,
> > Ian
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> > TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
> >
> > http://archives.postgresql.org
> >
>
> --
> Jim C. Nasby (aka Decibel!) [email protected]
> Member: Triangle Fraternity, Sports Car Club of America
> Give your computer some brain candy! www.distributed.net Team #1828
>
> Windows: "Where do you want to go today?"
> Linux: "Where do you want to go tomorrow?"
> FreeBSD: "Are you guys coming, or what?"
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
> subscribe-nomail command to [email protected] so that your
> message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
>
--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
[email protected] | (610) 359-1001
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-12 12:40 ` Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 44+ messages in thread
From: Justin Clift @ 2003-06-12 12:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; +Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]
Bruce Momjian wrote:
> I assume we don't want to mimick FreeBSD's infighting.
>
> I don't have any problem with doing voting, but I will say that the
> stated PostgreSQL core leadership goal, "to do as little as possible",
> has served us well.
Or not.
Regards and best wishes,
Justin Clift
--
"My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those
who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the
first group; there was less competition there."
- Indira Gandhi
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-12 15:49 ` Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 16:58 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Dennis Gearon <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 17:29 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 21:38 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] scott.marlowe <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 3 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: Lamar Owen @ 2003-06-12 15:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Justin Clift <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; +Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]
On Thursday 12 June 2003 08:40, Justin Clift wrote:
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > I assume we don't want to mimick FreeBSD's infighting.
> >
> > I don't have any problem with doing voting, but I will say that the
> > stated PostgreSQL core leadership goal, "to do as little as possible",
> > has served us well.
> Or not.
Each Open Source project has its own personality. I often use PostgreSQL as
an example of a well-run OSS project; I do believe that the current model is
working well.
I understand some of the concerns with the current model. However, this
database started as a research project, was picked up by a couple of students
and SQLified, then was picked up by a core group of its users who were
interested in making it better. And make it better they did! (with help of
course). Prolific developers have since been added to the core group.
This model has gotten us this far very well; and I don't think a fundamental
change in it is necessary to take us to the next level.
Or, to put it another way, we have a minimalistic 'government'. Some people
like that; others do not. Just as in the 'real world'. The user base,
moderated by core, makes the decisions -- I believe that is as it should be.
Somewhat like cadmium in a nuclear reactor. (:-)) Core prevents a meltdown,
and lets the reactor hum at a nice pace.
We want marketing? The someone steps up to the plate and markets (which has
happened). We want funding? Then some of our users need to step up to the
plate and do some funding. (which has also happened).
To borrow from another projects model, no one is asking Linus Torvalds to
accept a voted-in core team for the Linux kernel. He is also one who governs
as little as possible.
We're not commercial software; why must we act like commercial software?
--
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-12 16:58 ` Dennis Gearon <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 18:10 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2 siblings, 1 reply; 44+ messages in thread
From: Dennis Gearon @ 2003-06-12 16:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Lamar Owen <[email protected]>; +Cc: Justin Clift <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]
I'm not THAT familiar with recent developer history, community, or model for Postgres. I do see two individual's names a LOT on this listserve, and they really contribute a lot and guide a lot of us.
Bruce is one, and Tom Lane is the other. I think that Postgres's inertia is vulnerable to one of them dying. Hopefully you two guys, that is a long ways away! But I know of a OSS PHP project where the main guy died young in a motorcycle accident, and the last I heard, there was little progress in the project in a year's time; The project might be dead.
I think that the two main guys should keep a list of their references they use (DB theory, architecture planning, different optimizer theory, etc.), the roadmap for next 1-2 years, anything else that would help the group 'if a bus hit them'.
But, like I said, I'm not too familiar with the development community itself. I'm just relating to the trend I see here in the general list.
Lamar Owen wrote:
> On Thursday 12 June 2003 08:40, Justin Clift wrote:
>
>>Bruce Momjian wrote:
>>
>>>I assume we don't want to mimick FreeBSD's infighting.
>>>
>>>I don't have any problem with doing voting, but I will say that the
>>>stated PostgreSQL core leadership goal, "to do as little as possible",
>>>has served us well.
>
>
>>Or not.
>
>
> Each Open Source project has its own personality. I often use PostgreSQL as
> an example of a well-run OSS project; I do believe that the current model is
> working well.
>
> I understand some of the concerns with the current model. However, this
> database started as a research project, was picked up by a couple of students
> and SQLified, then was picked up by a core group of its users who were
> interested in making it better. And make it better they did! (with help of
> course). Prolific developers have since been added to the core group.
>
> This model has gotten us this far very well; and I don't think a fundamental
> change in it is necessary to take us to the next level.
>
> Or, to put it another way, we have a minimalistic 'government'. Some people
> like that; others do not. Just as in the 'real world'. The user base,
> moderated by core, makes the decisions -- I believe that is as it should be.
> Somewhat like cadmium in a nuclear reactor. (:-)) Core prevents a meltdown,
> and lets the reactor hum at a nice pace.
>
> We want marketing? The someone steps up to the plate and markets (which has
> happened). We want funding? Then some of our users need to step up to the
> plate and do some funding. (which has also happened).
>
> To borrow from another projects model, no one is asking Linus Torvalds to
> accept a voted-in core team for the Linux kernel. He is also one who governs
> as little as possible.
>
> We're not commercial software; why must we act like commercial software?
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 16:58 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Dennis Gearon <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-13 18:10 ` Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 18:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Dennis Gearon <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 44+ messages in thread
From: Ian Linwood @ 2003-06-13 18:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: [email protected]
Hello Dennis,
Thursday, June 12, 2003, 5:58:49 PM, you wrote:
> Bruce is one, and Tom Lane is the other. I think that Postgres's inertia is vulnerable to one of them dying.
ROFL
I just about drowned in my Stella when I read this.
You are a cheery chap, aren't you! ;-)
If we all worried too much about things like this we'd be too busy
making our funeral arrangements on our mobiles to see the bus coming
around the corner!
Sorry to poke fun, but I find it very amusing to watch how this thread
has turned to discussing the deaths of contributors to the PostgreSQL
project.
--
Best regards,
Ian
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 16:58 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Dennis Gearon <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 18:10 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-13 18:22 ` Dennis Gearon <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: Dennis Gearon @ 2003-06-13 18:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
It is funny, but I'm an enjiineer, I what if everything!
Ian Linwood wrote:
> Hello Dennis,
>
> Thursday, June 12, 2003, 5:58:49 PM, you wrote:
>
>
>>Bruce is one, and Tom Lane is the other. I think that Postgres's inertia is vulnerable to one of them dying.
>
>
> ROFL
> I just about drowned in my Stella when I read this.
> You are a cheery chap, aren't you! ;-)
>
> If we all worried too much about things like this we'd be too busy
> making our funeral arrangements on our mobiles to see the bus coming
> around the corner!
>
> Sorry to poke fun, but I find it very amusing to watch how this thread
> has turned to discussing the deaths of contributors to the PostgreSQL
> project.
>
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-12 17:29 ` Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 02:53 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2 siblings, 1 reply; 44+ messages in thread
From: Justin Clift @ 2003-06-12 17:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Lamar Owen <[email protected]>; +Cc: Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]
Lamar Owen wrote:
> On Thursday 12 June 2003 08:40, Justin Clift wrote:
>
>>Bruce Momjian wrote:
>>
>>>I assume we don't want to mimick FreeBSD's infighting.
>>>
>>>I don't have any problem with doing voting, but I will say that the
>>>stated PostgreSQL core leadership goal, "to do as little as possible",
>>>has served us well.
>
>
>>Or not.
>
>
> Each Open Source project has its own personality. I often use PostgreSQL as
> an example of a well-run OSS project; I do believe that the current model is
> working well.
I strongly disagree. The current model is stable, and thus far it has let us
putter along without any major community disputes that may potentially divide
the community.
However, it's also had a chilling effect on our community, not letting us
drive the expansion nor give the right attention to the non-code parts of
PostgreSQL that are important.
If we had some kind of voting system in place for core, then we would likely
have a more active and larger community - generated by the people at the top
being more involved, enthusiastic, energetic, and giving solid leadership
and direction.
Getting involvement in this from the PostgreSQL Advocacy and Marketing group would
be extremely beneficial as well, as it's presently lacking vision, coherent
plans and goals to bring the vision to reality, and consistent effort by all but
a handful of members. Good leadership + direction would be welcome there and
should be included in the PostgreSQL "core" group as well.
<snip>
> We want marketing? The someone steps up to the plate and markets (which has
> happened).
It's not that we need marketing... we need *consistent* marketing.
> We want funding? Then some of our users need to step up to the
> plate and do some funding. (which has also happened).
Ha! I've seen more funding and offers of assistance that made sense
_rejected_ by members of the core group - for reasons beneficial to them
privately even though the PostgreSQL Community would have benefited -
than I have seen accepted.
However, your right in that this also demonstates we have a fairly tight-knit
Community that will help one another out when needed, and that's all good.
:-)
> To borrow from another projects model, no one is asking Linus Torvalds to
> accept a voted-in core team for the Linux kernel. He is also one who governs
> as little as possible.
Through delegation. :)
> We're not commercial software; why must we act like commercial software?
People seem to get this confused a lot. Why are you associating a successful
method of organising resources (time, people, etc) with only commercial software
projects? _Any_ project that grows to various size points and wants to maintain
it or keep on expanding will have to figure out ways of co-ordinating their
time, efforts, communications, etc, that work for them appropriately at all of
these size points. That's just common sense.
Commercial Software projects and companies often use "models of organisation" that
are proven to work, and although neither they nor us are limited to just those
models, we don't need to write them off as being "not good enough" just because
we don't like the other places that have employed them.
Hope that makes sense, I'm getting really tired about now.
:-)
Regards and best wishes,
Justin Clift
--
"My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those
who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the
first group; there was less competition there."
- Indira Gandhi
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 17:29 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-13 02:53 ` Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 04:13 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] The Hermit Hacker <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 05:08 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 13:00 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Patrick Welche <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 3 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: Lamar Owen @ 2003-06-13 02:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Justin Clift <[email protected]>; +Cc: Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]
On Thursday 12 June 2003 13:29, Justin Clift wrote:
> Lamar Owen wrote:
> > Each Open Source project has its own personality. I often use PostgreSQL
> > as an example of a well-run OSS project; I do believe that the current
> > model is working well.
> I strongly disagree. The current model is stable, and thus far it has let
> us putter along without any major community disputes that may potentially
> divide the community.
Stable is good.
> However, it's also had a chilling effect on our community, not letting us
> drive the expansion nor give the right attention to the non-code parts of
> PostgreSQL that are important.
Who is 'us'?
> If we had some kind of voting system in place for core, then we would
> likely have a more active and larger community - generated by the people at
> the top being more involved, enthusiastic, energetic, and giving solid
> leadership and direction.
I really can't see how the 'people at the top' aren't already the most
involved developers in the group. This project is run by the developers; and
that is in my mind a good thing. 'He who codes the most gets to determine
the code.'
> Getting involvement in this from the PostgreSQL Advocacy and Marketing
> group would be extremely beneficial as well, as it's presently lacking
> vision, coherent plans and goals to bring the vision to reality, and
> consistent effort by all but a handful of members. Good leadership +
> direction would be welcome there and should be included in the PostgreSQL
> "core" group as well.
Is Marc or Bruce not a part of the 'Advocacy and Marketing Group' already?
Let the Advocacy and Marketing group make their suggestions in the open forum
of Hackers and see what is thought of it, just like everything else that has
been done to this database. There are five people on core; their skilset is
varied enough to where any single point of view isn't dominant. The who
Hackers group drives the development.
> It's not that we need marketing... we need *consistent* marketing.
If a group of developers can make consistent advances in technology without a
formal structure, why can't a group of marketers do the same? The process is
well known and fully documented in the archives of the hackers mailing list:
you want a feature in PostgreSQL? The first hurdle is to get it on the TODO.
That's a Bruce item, and one that only happens with Hackers (and core)
consensus. The second hurdle is to get a developer with the chops to care
about it enough to make it happen. If I had the chops to do it, seamless
upgrading would already be done. No one with the chops cares enough about it
to make it happen. 'Scratch the itch' the Free Software Mantra states. The
key is getting someone to itch for it that can successfully scratch it. You
must market to the hackers as much as to the users.
> Ha! I've seen more funding and offers of assistance that made sense
> _rejected_ by members of the core group - for reasons beneficial to them
> privately even though the PostgreSQL Community would have benefited -
> than I have seen accepted.
Made sense to whom?
> However, your right in that this also demonstates we have a fairly
> tight-knit Community that will help one another out when needed, and that's
> all good.
Yes, we do have a tight community for the most part.
> > To borrow from another projects model, no one is asking Linus Torvalds to
> > accept a voted-in core team for the Linux kernel. He is also one who
> > governs as little as possible.
> Through delegation. :)
If you'll note, core developers aren't the ones with exclusive commit
privilege to CVS. Many developers have commit privileges. Many things are
already delegated where it makes sense to do so. Such as the RPMs.
> People seem to get this confused a lot. Why are you associating a
> successful method of organising resources (time, people, etc) with only
> commercial software projects? _Any_ project that grows to various size
> points and wants to maintain it or keep on expanding will have to figure
> out ways of co-ordinating their time, efforts, communications, etc, that
> work for them appropriately at all of these size points. That's just
> common sense.
Common sense is relative. Why must a project expand to be successful? Why is
more always better? We need more good developers, no doubt. However, take a
look at how many developers we already have. Maybe we are already
coordinating well.
Sure, we can always improve. However, I disagree that we must look to a
different system to do it.
> Commercial Software projects and companies often use "models of
> organisation" that are proven to work, and although neither they nor us are
> limited to just those models, we don't need to write them off as being "not
> good enough" just because we don't like the other places that have employed
> them.
But you miss an important point. We are all scratching an itch. If this
ceases to be fun and becomes more like work those of us who are doing this
totally volunteer may just quit. PostgreSQL is a hobby for me; while it
makes sense for me in that I use PostgreSQL, I thoroughly enjoy knowing that
what I am doing is helping people. The current organization makes it easy
for people to jump in (as long as they make the attempt to understand how we
do things and the areas where we will not likely change (like the license --
it's BSD and that's that!) and try to work with us).
You are one who jumped in with some documentation (techdocs in particular);
what was your experience in getting started? It's very informal; I like
that.
So I believe that the current 'by invitation only' core group is a good way
for this project to continue. Feel free to disagree; choice is good.
--
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 17:29 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 02:53 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-13 04:13 ` The Hermit Hacker <[email protected]>
2 siblings, 0 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: The Hermit Hacker @ 2003-06-13 04:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Lamar Owen <[email protected]>; +Cc: Justin Clift <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]
On Thu, 12 Jun 2003, Lamar Owen wrote:
> Is Marc or Bruce not a part of the 'Advocacy and Marketing Group'
> already? Let the Advocacy and Marketing group make their suggestions in
> the open forum of Hackers and see what is thought of it, just like
> everything else that has been done to this database. There are five
> people on core; their skilset is varied enough to where any single point
> of view isn't dominant. The who Hackers group drives the development.
Note that Justin is of the impression that "core" is a secret cabal :)
We've tried to educate him otherwis ... I think the last "really secret"
thing that we discussed on core was Greatbridge coming onto the scene,
everything else gets discussed on -hackers ... I really wish the Advocacy
guys would use the -advocacy list a bit more, mind you, since Justin is
right, there is alot of good that could be done, but that list has been
quite quiet ...
> > Ha! I've seen more funding and offers of assistance that made sense
> > _rejected_ by members of the core group - for reasons beneficial to them
> > privately even though the PostgreSQL Community would have benefited -
> > than I have seen accepted.
>
> Made sense to whom?
Bruce? Tom? Have I missed some core discussions? Justin, can you
enlighten us on these ... ? *scratch head* Since I do have available to
myself the archives of core, I'd love to go digging back if you have some
examples?
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 17:29 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 02:53 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-13 05:08 ` Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 05:20 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 09:38 ` Re: [GENERAL] [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 14:33 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2 siblings, 3 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: Tom Lane @ 2003-06-13 05:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Lamar Owen <[email protected]>; +Cc: Justin Clift <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]
Lamar Owen <[email protected]> writes:
> On Thursday 12 June 2003 13:29, Justin Clift wrote:
>> Getting involvement in this from the PostgreSQL Advocacy and Marketing
>> group would be extremely beneficial as well, as it's presently lacking
>> vision, coherent plans and goals to bring the vision to reality, and
>> consistent effort by all but a handful of members. Good leadership +
>> direction would be welcome there and should be included in the PostgreSQL
>> "core" group as well.
> Is Marc or Bruce not a part of the 'Advocacy and Marketing Group' already?
> Let the Advocacy and Marketing group make their suggestions in the open forum
> of Hackers and see what is thought of it, just like everything else that has
> been done to this database. There are five people on core; their skilset is
> varied enough to where any single point of view isn't dominant.
Actually I think Justin has a point: the core team consists of hackers.
I believe we do a decent job of leading technical development of
Postgres, but we're not well-qualified to lead marketing efforts.
It doesn't, however, follow that adding some marketing experts to core
would improve matters. I think it'd just fragment our attention.
There's an advocacy/marketing group in place already, and it seems to
me they should just take the ball and run with it. They don't need
core's approval to do the things they can do well.
I wouldn't mind seeing a "core marketing" team evolve to parallel the
existing "core technical" team. But it won't happen by vote. To the
extent that the hackers community listens to core on technical issues,
it's because we've achieved respect by hard work. The core marketing
team has to step forward and win their credibility the same way.
regards, tom lane
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 17:29 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 02:53 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 05:08 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Tom Lane <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-13 05:20 ` Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2 siblings, 0 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: Lamar Owen @ 2003-06-13 05:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Tom Lane <[email protected]>; +Cc: Justin Clift <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]
On Friday 13 June 2003 01:08, Tom Lane wrote:
> Actually I think Justin has a point: the core team consists of hackers.
> I believe we do a decent job of leading technical development of
> Postgres, but we're not well-qualified to lead marketing efforts.
> To the
> extent that the hackers community listens to core on technical issues,
> it's because we've achieved respect by hard work. The core marketing
> team has to step forward and win their credibility the same way.
This hits the nail on the head, something you're usually pretty good at doing,
Tom.
--
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [GENERAL] [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 17:29 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 02:53 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 05:08 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Tom Lane <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-13 09:38 ` Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2 siblings, 0 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: Justin Clift @ 2003-06-13 09:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Tom Lane <[email protected]>; +Cc: Lamar Owen <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]; PostgreSQL Advocacy and Marketing Mailing List <[email protected]>
Tom Lane wrote:
<snip>
> I wouldn't mind seeing a "core marketing" team evolve to parallel the
> existing "core technical" team. But it won't happen by vote. To the
> extent that the hackers community listens to core on technical issues,
> it's because we've achieved respect by hard work. The core marketing
> team has to step forward and win their credibility the same way.
Hmmm, interesting idea, and very well put.
:-)
Regards and best wishes,
Justin Clift
> regards, tom lane
--
"My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those
who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the
first group; there was less competition there."
- Indira Gandhi
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 17:29 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 02:53 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 05:08 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Tom Lane <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-13 14:33 ` Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 14:56 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 16:10 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 21:06 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] The Hermit Hacker <[email protected]>
2 siblings, 3 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: Robert Treat @ 2003-06-13 14:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Tom Lane <[email protected]>; +Cc: Lamar Owen <[email protected]>; Justin Clift <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Fri, 2003-06-13 at 01:08, Tom Lane wrote:
> Lamar Owen <[email protected]> writes:
> > On Thursday 12 June 2003 13:29, Justin Clift wrote:
> >> Getting involvement in this from the PostgreSQL Advocacy and Marketing
> >> group would be extremely beneficial as well, as it's presently lacking
> >> vision, coherent plans and goals to bring the vision to reality, and
> >> consistent effort by all but a handful of members. Good leadership +
> >> direction would be welcome there and should be included in the PostgreSQL
> >> "core" group as well.
>
> > Is Marc or Bruce not a part of the 'Advocacy and Marketing Group' already?
> > Let the Advocacy and Marketing group make their suggestions in the open forum
> > of Hackers and see what is thought of it, just like everything else that has
> > been done to this database. There are five people on core; their skilset is
> > varied enough to where any single point of view isn't dominant.
>
> Actually I think Justin has a point: the core team consists of hackers.
> I believe we do a decent job of leading technical development of
> Postgres, but we're not well-qualified to lead marketing efforts.
>
Tom, you may not be qualified, but you have an uncanny ability to give
sage advice ;-)
> It doesn't, however, follow that adding some marketing experts to core
> would improve matters. I think it'd just fragment our attention.
> There's an advocacy/marketing group in place already, and it seems to
> me they should just take the ball and run with it. They don't need
> core's approval to do the things they can do well.
>
But we do need core's approval to add legitimacy to our efforts,
especially with some of the "marketing is bad" folks that live on
-hackers. We also need core's approval to get infrastructure changes
put into place to help our efforts.
> I wouldn't mind seeing a "core marketing" team evolve to parallel the
> existing "core technical" team. But it won't happen by vote. To the
> extent that the hackers community listens to core on technical issues,
> it's because we've achieved respect by hard work. The core marketing
> team has to step forward and win their credibility the same way.
>
This overlooks the fact that you can't earn credibility with some of our
community unless you hack on the back-end. The uproar over the 7.3 press
release was a fine example of what happens when the "advocacy" guys try
to make a change to something non-technical that the "technical" guys
don't approve of.
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 17:29 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 02:53 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 05:08 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 14:33 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-13 14:56 ` Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 15:20 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Diogo de Oliveira Biazus <[email protected]>
2 siblings, 1 reply; 44+ messages in thread
From: Tom Lane @ 2003-06-13 14:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Robert Treat <[email protected]>; +Cc: Lamar Owen <[email protected]>; Justin Clift <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected] <[email protected]>
Robert Treat <[email protected]> writes:
> On Fri, 2003-06-13 at 01:08, Tom Lane wrote:
>> I wouldn't mind seeing a "core marketing" team evolve to parallel the
>> existing "core technical" team.
> This overlooks the fact that you can't earn credibility with some of our
> community unless you hack on the back-end.
That is the standard way to earn *technical* credibility in this
community, sure. What I'm suggesting is that credibility in the
advocacy/marketing area is a different currency. I still think
you have to earn the respect of your peers by hard work, but exactly
what that work is is quite different. Being a geek with no clue
about marketing, I don't actually know how one would go about building
a reputation in this area. I do know that having the technical core
team bless your efforts won't create any credibility of that kind,
because we have none to give.
> The uproar over the 7.3 press
> release was a fine example of what happens when the "advocacy" guys try
> to make a change to something non-technical that the "technical" guys
> don't approve of.
AFAIR people didn't have a problem with the press release as press
release, they just said that what *they* wanted to read was a more
technically oriented document, and they were bemoaning the lack of one.
regards, tom lane
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 17:29 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 02:53 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 05:08 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 14:33 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 14:56 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Tom Lane <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-13 15:20 ` Diogo de Oliveira Biazus <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: Diogo de Oliveira Biazus @ 2003-06-13 15:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Tom Lane wrote:
>Robert Treat <[email protected]> writes:
>
>
>>On Fri, 2003-06-13 at 01:08, Tom Lane wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I wouldn't mind seeing a "core marketing" team evolve to parallel the
>>>existing "core technical" team.
>>>
>>>
>>This overlooks the fact that you can't earn credibility with some of our
>>community unless you hack on the back-end.
>>
>>
>
>That is the standard way to earn *technical* credibility in this
>community, sure. What I'm suggesting is that credibility in the
>advocacy/marketing area is a different currency. I still think
>you have to earn the respect of your peers by hard work, but exactly
>what that work is is quite different. Being a geek with no clue
>about marketing, I don't actually know how one would go about building
>a reputation in this area. I do know that having the technical core
>team bless your efforts won't create any credibility of that kind,
>because we have none to give.
>
This idea of a core marketing team is great, in my opinion.
So there will be some people realy focused on the press releases, case
studies, advocacy site, events and such things, that are realy important
and make the comunity stronger. The people working in this area would
build their reputation based on this.
There's a interesting article on InfoWorld
(http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/05/23/21OPconnection_1.html) that
says: "A deeper examination of PostgresSQL suggests that it could be
vastly under-hyped."
>AFAIR people didn't have a problem with the press release as press
>release, they just said that what *they* wanted to read was a more
>technically oriented document, and they were bemoaning the lack of one.
>
>
Maybe the press release should have a link to a more technical doc.
IMHO the press release orientation was very good.
My regards,
--
Diogo de Oliveira Biazus
[email protected]
Ikono Sistemas e Automação
http://www.ikono.com.br
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 17:29 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 02:53 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 05:08 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 14:33 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-13 16:10 ` Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 17:58 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2003-06-14 04:06 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2 siblings, 2 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: Lamar Owen @ 2003-06-13 16:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Robert Treat <[email protected]>; Tom Lane <[email protected]>; +Cc: Justin Clift <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Friday 13 June 2003 10:33, Robert Treat wrote:
> This overlooks the fact that you can't earn credibility with some of our
> community unless you hack on the back-end. The uproar over the 7.3 press
> release was a fine example of what happens when the "advocacy" guys try
> to make a change to something non-technical that the "technical" guys
> don't approve of.
Well, a marketing team doesn't need credibility with the hackers as much as it
needs credibility with the users. Along that bent, the user-grade press
release should not appear on Hackers. Rather, a technical release-notes is
needed there, concocted by core.
In order to be credible, one must neither underhype nor overhype -- but there
is a correct mix of hype in there, because non-tech people love to be wowed.
And then we technical people need to let the marketing people do their thing,
with core keeping the marketing people well-informed of what the release will
actually do.
So I see a core marketing team having a least one person who, if not an active
developer, actively follows hackers and understands the technical details of
the coming release. That person needs to have enough development chops to
competently install and test a beta to see where it's going. That person
then needs to be able to translate the jargon into userspeak, and explain the
draft userspeak document to the rest of the marketing core, who can then
translate that into pressspeak for the press release.
The hardest part of this is the coordination of the effort -- first, making
sure the timing is correct, and second making sure the facts are straight.
This person will need to have a thick skin, because that position will get
complaints from hacker and marketer alike.
And the developers who are not marketers need to let them do the job. If you
don't want the marketer to interfere with development, then don't interfere
with marketing. But the two cores will need to closely coordinate. The
liasons between them will need to be able to work well with both groups.
I prefer the developer-driven style, but I do understand that the typical user
doesn't fully appreciate the fine points of the release notes. And we CAN do
a better job in communicating with people just how great PostgreSQL really
is. And that job isn't about facts, it's about impressions. Impressions are
more stubborn than facts, IME.
The current 'PostgreSQL Weekly News' is a great step in that direction, BTW.
I still remember my first taste of Hackers; I thought that things moved kinda
slow in here (because there never really was any meat on what was going on on
the website). Boy, was I ever wrong!
Getting the Linux, FreeBSD, and other geek news sites their press release is
just as important, but, that's a different audience who needs a different
press release. ZDNet and its ilk could get the mainstream release, with only
a link to the homepage. The geek news gets a meatier press release, with
links to the home page, downloads, and release notes. And Hackers gets the
release notes. One size does not fit all.
--
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 17:29 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 02:53 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 05:08 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 14:33 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 16:10 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-13 17:58 ` Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 20:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 21:16 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] The Hermit Hacker <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 23:04 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Kaare Rasmussen <[email protected]>
2003-06-15 19:44 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 4 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: Robert Treat @ 2003-06-13 17:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Lamar Owen <[email protected]>; +Cc: Tom Lane <[email protected]>; Justin Clift <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Fri, 2003-06-13 at 12:10, Lamar Owen wrote:
> On Friday 13 June 2003 10:33, Robert Treat wrote:
> > This overlooks the fact that you can't earn credibility with some of our
> > community unless you hack on the back-end. The uproar over the 7.3 press
> > release was a fine example of what happens when the "advocacy" guys try
> > to make a change to something non-technical that the "technical" guys
> > don't approve of.
>
> Well, a marketing team doesn't need credibility with the hackers as much as it
> needs credibility with the users. Along that bent, the user-grade press
> release should not appear on Hackers. Rather, a technical release-notes is
> needed there, concocted by core.
>
> In order to be credible, one must neither underhype nor overhype -- but there
> is a correct mix of hype in there, because non-tech people love to be wowed.
>
> And then we technical people need to let the marketing people do their thing,
> with core keeping the marketing people well-informed of what the release will
> actually do.
>
> So I see a core marketing team having a least one person who, if not an active
> developer, actively follows hackers and understands the technical details of
> the coming release. That person needs to have enough development chops to
> competently install and test a beta to see where it's going. That person
> then needs to be able to translate the jargon into userspeak, and explain the
> draft userspeak document to the rest of the marketing core, who can then
> translate that into pressspeak for the press release.
>
> The hardest part of this is the coordination of the effort -- first, making
> sure the timing is correct, and second making sure the facts are straight.
> This person will need to have a thick skin, because that position will get
> complaints from hacker and marketer alike.
>
> And the developers who are not marketers need to let them do the job. If you
> don't want the marketer to interfere with development, then don't interfere
> with marketing. But the two cores will need to closely coordinate. The
> liasons between them will need to be able to work well with both groups.
>
are people willing to delay releases for marketing purposes? we seem to
be into a nasty habit of release on holidays which means it has taken us
a few days to get all of the websites updated and emails sent out. if we
could get core to support the idea that a release date must get approval
from the advocacy guys before it can be announced that would be helpful.
that's the kind of issue that i see causing problems with the technical
side of the community and i'm not sure any amount of credibility with
the users will help.
> I prefer the developer-driven style, but I do understand that the typical user
> doesn't fully appreciate the fine points of the release notes. And we CAN do
> a better job in communicating with people just how great PostgreSQL really
> is. And that job isn't about facts, it's about impressions. Impressions are
> more stubborn than facts, IME.
:-)
>
> The current 'PostgreSQL Weekly News' is a great step in that direction, BTW.
> I still remember my first taste of Hackers; I thought that things moved kinda
> slow in here (because there never really was any meat on what was going on on
> the website). Boy, was I ever wrong!
>
> Getting the Linux, FreeBSD, and other geek news sites their press release is
> just as important, but, that's a different audience who needs a different
> press release. ZDNet and its ilk could get the mainstream release, with only
> a link to the homepage. The geek news gets a meatier press release, with
> links to the home page, downloads, and release notes. And Hackers gets the
> release notes. One size does not fit all.
i think the disconnect here is that in the past all aspects of marketing
postgresql have been made by the technical guys. now you have a group
of people who want to change the way that things are done and if the new
people's decisions are going to override the previous policies that were
put in place, we need some form acceptance of that and the folks who i
see giving that acceptance is the core group. The press releases fall
into this category, since the current standard is that we don't make
announcements of "point" releases, but the advocacy group is recognizing
that something could be gained from spreading the word to right right
target audiences. Should we just go and do it? I guess based on Tom's
post we should.
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 17:29 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 02:53 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 05:08 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 14:33 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 16:10 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 17:58 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-13 20:49 ` Tom Lane <[email protected]>
3 siblings, 0 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: Tom Lane @ 2003-06-13 20:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Robert Treat <[email protected]>; +Cc: Lamar Owen <[email protected]>; Justin Clift <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected] <[email protected]>
Robert Treat <[email protected]> writes:
> are people willing to delay releases for marketing purposes? we seem to
> be into a nasty habit of release on holidays which means it has taken us
> a few days to get all of the websites updated and emails sent out. if we
> could get core to support the idea that a release date must get approval
> from the advocacy guys before it can be announced that would be helpful.
I don't have a problem with this; I've also thought that we chose odd
release dates without thinking about it. For point releases it's
perhaps less important, but certainly major release dates ought to be
set with some consideration of how we'll put the word out.
regards, tom lane
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 17:29 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 02:53 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 05:08 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 14:33 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 16:10 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 17:58 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-13 21:16 ` The Hermit Hacker <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 22:03 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
3 siblings, 1 reply; 44+ messages in thread
From: The Hermit Hacker @ 2003-06-13 21:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Robert Treat <[email protected]>; +Cc: Lamar Owen <[email protected]>; Tom Lane <[email protected]>; Justin Clift <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Fri, 13 Jun 2003, Robert Treat wrote:
> are people willing to delay releases for marketing purposes? we seem to
> be into a nasty habit of release on holidays which means it has taken us
> a few days to get all of the websites updated and emails sent out. if we
> could get core to support the idea that a release date must get approval
> from the advocacy guys before it can be announced that would be helpful.
First off, all core does for stuff like this is sets the 'estimated
release date' ... look back through the archives, and I dont' think there
has been a release yet that has been "on time", and the dates have always
been pushed back due to discussions on -hackers ... and even as far as the
estimated release date is concerned, the gist of the discussion on -core
is "should we aim for a <enter date here> release?", to which the answers
are either "I have this one thing I'm working on, can we push it back a
bit?", or, if all is in agreement "sounds great, let's put it to -hackers
just to make sure that someone else doesn't have something they need a few
more days for" ...
So, pushing a release back a few days cause the advocacy folks haven't
been able to finish up a release notice is nothing ...
> i think the disconnect here is that in the past all aspects of marketing
> postgresql have been made by the technical guys. now you have a group
> of people who want to change the way that things are done and if the new
> people's decisions are going to override the previous policies that were
> put in place, we need some form acceptance of that and the folks who i
> see giving that acceptance is the core group. The press releases fall
> into this category, since the current standard is that we don't make
> announcements of "point" releases, but the advocacy group is recognizing
> that something could be gained from spreading the word to right right
> target audiences. Should we just go and do it? I guess based on Tom's
> post we should.
I think so too ... but, just curious ... we generally mention something on
-hackers at least a week before we do any point releases ... shouldn't
that be enough time to throw together a press release so that the release
doesn't have to be delayed? same with major releases, there is such a
long, drawn out beta period before that, where features are frozen ...
shouldn't there be enough time in there to make one helluva powerful press
release?
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 17:29 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 02:53 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 05:08 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 14:33 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 16:10 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 17:58 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 21:16 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] The Hermit Hacker <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-13 22:03 ` Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 22:11 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] The Hermit Hacker <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 44+ messages in thread
From: Robert Treat @ 2003-06-13 22:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: The Hermit Hacker <[email protected]>; +Cc: Lamar Owen <[email protected]>; Tom Lane <[email protected]>; Justin Clift <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Fri, 2003-06-13 at 17:16, The Hermit Hacker wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Jun 2003, Robert Treat wrote:
> > i think the disconnect here is that in the past all aspects of marketing
> > postgresql have been made by the technical guys. now you have a group
> > of people who want to change the way that things are done and if the new
> > people's decisions are going to override the previous policies that were
> > put in place, we need some form acceptance of that and the folks who i
> > see giving that acceptance is the core group. The press releases fall
> > into this category, since the current standard is that we don't make
> > announcements of "point" releases, but the advocacy group is recognizing
> > that something could be gained from spreading the word to right right
> > target audiences. Should we just go and do it? I guess based on Tom's
> > post we should.
>
> I think so too ... but, just curious ... we generally mention something on
> -hackers at least a week before we do any point releases ... shouldn't
> that be enough time to throw together a press release so that the release
> doesn't have to be delayed? same with major releases, there is such a
> long, drawn out beta period before that, where features are frozen ...
> shouldn't there be enough time in there to make one helluva powerful press
> release?
>
I don't want to go into a detailed rehash of the releases, but out of
the last few we've had releases that were wrapped and/or packaged and
announcements sent out to the mailing lists and there was either no
mention on the websites, issues with the ftp mirrors, or no press
releases given. I know for 7.3.3 the actual release date got bumped
around enough I felt unsure when it came to reporting the release status
in the weekly news.
Right now I believe there are two "release process" documents floating
around, one by the advocacy group, and one in the cvs. We'll see how
well they work for the next release.
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 17:29 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 02:53 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 05:08 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 14:33 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 16:10 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 17:58 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 21:16 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] The Hermit Hacker <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 22:03 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-13 22:11 ` The Hermit Hacker <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: The Hermit Hacker @ 2003-06-13 22:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Robert Treat <[email protected]>; +Cc: The Hermit Hacker <[email protected]>; Lamar Owen <[email protected]>; Tom Lane <[email protected]>; Justin Clift <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Fri, 13 Jun 2003, Robert Treat wrote:
> Right now I believe there are two "release process" documents floating
> around, one by the advocacy group, and one in the cvs. We'll see how
> well they work for the next release.
'K, well, let's start planning now ... what does it take to get the two
'merged' so that we're all on the same page? :)
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 17:29 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 02:53 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 05:08 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 14:33 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 16:10 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 17:58 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-13 23:04 ` Kaare Rasmussen <[email protected]>
2003-06-16 14:32 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
3 siblings, 1 reply; 44+ messages in thread
From: Kaare Rasmussen @ 2003-06-13 23:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
> are people willing to delay releases for marketing purposes? we seem to
> be into a nasty habit of release on holidays which means it has taken us
> a few days to get all of the websites updated and emails sent out. if we
> could get core to support the idea that a release date must get approval
> from the advocacy guys before it can be announced that would be helpful.
It is a point to address, but it doesn't have to be a big issue, if both
groups can work together.
IIRC the release dates are accepted with some kind of consensus. This means
that a core advocacy group would have a say.
Also, I don't see that press releases necessarily has to be made at the last
minute. All the features of a major release will be in place weeks before the
release date as there always will be beta testing.
--
Kaare Rasmussen --Linux, spil,-- Tlf: 3816 2582
Kaki Data tshirts, merchandize Fax: 3816 2501
Howitzvej 75 Åben 12.00-18.00 Email: [email protected]
2000 Frederiksberg Lørdag 12.00-16.00 Web: www.suse.dk
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 17:29 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 02:53 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 05:08 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 14:33 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 16:10 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 17:58 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 23:04 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Kaare Rasmussen <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-16 14:32 ` Robert Treat <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: Robert Treat @ 2003-06-16 14:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: [email protected]; +Cc: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Fri, 2003-06-13 at 19:04, Kaare Rasmussen wrote:
> > are people willing to delay releases for marketing purposes? we seem to
> > be into a nasty habit of release on holidays which means it has taken us
> > a few days to get all of the websites updated and emails sent out. if we
> > could get core to support the idea that a release date must get approval
> > from the advocacy guys before it can be announced that would be helpful.
>
<snip>
> Also, I don't see that press releases necessarily has to be made at the last
> minute. All the features of a major release will be in place weeks before the
> release date as there always will be beta testing.
>
Just to clarify, by delay I mean "instead of release this Wednesday,
let's do it on Friday". This should only be needed for purposes of
coordinating between the folks doing translations, sending emails,
updating the websites, setting up the ftp servers, and that type of
thing. I expect to start the press release process at the start of
feature freeze (July 1st).
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 17:29 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 02:53 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 05:08 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 14:33 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 16:10 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 17:58 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-15 19:44 ` Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
3 siblings, 0 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: Jan Wieck @ 2003-06-15 19:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Robert Treat <[email protected]>; +Cc: Lamar Owen <[email protected]>; Tom Lane <[email protected]>; Justin Clift <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected] <[email protected]>
Robert Treat wrote:
> are people willing to delay releases for marketing purposes? we seem to
> be into a nasty habit of release on holidays which means it has taken us
> a few days to get all of the websites updated and emails sent out. if we
> could get core to support the idea that a release date must get approval
> from the advocacy guys before it can be announced that would be helpful.
I have no problem with that. More to the point, even things like the
release numbering are (unfortunately) more of a marketing issue these
days than reflecting any technical aspects.
> that's the kind of issue that i see causing problems with the technical
> side of the community and i'm not sure any amount of credibility with
> the users will help.
The latin word "credere" means trust. One can only proove that he's
credible (trustworthy) if we let him.
Jan
--
#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
#================================================== [email protected] #
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 17:29 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 02:53 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 05:08 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 14:33 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 16:10 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-14 04:06 ` Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2003-06-14 03:54 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2003-06-14 16:21 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 2 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: Tom Lane @ 2003-06-14 04:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Lamar Owen <[email protected]>; +Cc: Robert Treat <[email protected]>; Justin Clift <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected] <[email protected]>
Lamar Owen <[email protected]> writes:
> Getting the Linux, FreeBSD, and other geek news sites their press release is
> just as important, but, that's a different audience who needs a different
> press release. ZDNet and its ilk could get the mainstream release, with only
> a link to the homepage. The geek news gets a meatier press release, with
> links to the home page, downloads, and release notes. And Hackers gets the
> release notes. One size does not fit all.
ISTM Lamar's struck the nail pretty square on the head here. We have
several easily-identifiable audiences for release announcements. We
have to provide each audience with the material they want.
I believe the current core team ("technical core" if you like that
phrase) understands what sort of info the pgsql-hackers audience wants.
I'm very happy to defer to someone else's judgement on how to present
the same info to non-hacker audiences.
Seems like the next problem is to figure out exactly who gets the last
say in those decisions. I made a lot of sweeping statements yesterday
about earning one's respect by track record ... but I'm not sure what
we do in the short run before anyone's established track records ...
regards, tom lane
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 17:29 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 02:53 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 05:08 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 14:33 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 16:10 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-14 04:06 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Tom Lane <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-14 03:54 ` Robert Treat <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: Robert Treat @ 2003-06-14 03:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Tom Lane <[email protected]>; Lamar Owen <[email protected]>; +Cc: Justin Clift <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Saturday 14 June 2003 12:06 am, Tom Lane wrote:
> Lamar Owen <[email protected]> writes:
> > Getting the Linux, FreeBSD, and other geek news sites their press release
> > is just as important, but, that's a different audience who needs a
> > different press release. ZDNet and its ilk could get the mainstream
> > release, with only a link to the homepage. The geek news gets a meatier
> > press release, with links to the home page, downloads, and release notes.
> > And Hackers gets the release notes. One size does not fit all.
>
> ISTM Lamar's struck the nail pretty square on the head here. We have
> several easily-identifiable audiences for release announcements. We
> have to provide each audience with the material they want.
>
The current plan for the next major release is to write up a general press
release to be distributed to -announce and to the list o' press contacts.
It'll also go up on the various websites. However it *won't* be sent to the
-hackers list. This worked well the last time (save the hackers part) and I
don't think anyone has brought up a reason to change it.
> I believe the current core team ("technical core" if you like that
> phrase) understands what sort of info the pgsql-hackers audience wants.
> I'm very happy to defer to someone else's judgement on how to present
> the same info to non-hacker audiences.
>
> Seems like the next problem is to figure out exactly who gets the last
> say in those decisions. I made a lot of sweeping statements yesterday
> about earning one's respect by track record ... but I'm not sure what
> we do in the short run before anyone's established track records ...
>
we can sort that one out with whoever shows up on -advocacy.
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 17:29 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 02:53 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 05:08 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 14:33 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 16:10 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-14 04:06 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Tom Lane <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-14 16:21 ` Justin Clift <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: Justin Clift @ 2003-06-14 16:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Tom Lane <[email protected]>; +Cc: Lamar Owen <[email protected]>; Robert Treat <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected] <[email protected]>
Tom Lane wrote:
<snip>
> I made a lot of sweeping statements yesterday
> about earning one's respect by track record ... but I'm not sure what
> we do in the short run before anyone's established track records ...
That bit's easy.
The people in the Advocacy group who have already shown themselves to be
extremely solid contributors and also very clueful are at least:
Josh Berkus
Robert Treat
er... myself :-)
There are other solid contibutors too, but Josh and Robert have both
demonstrated good contributor and leadership qualities, plus good common
sense.
:-)
Regards and best wishes,
Justin Clift
> regards, tom lane
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 17:29 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 02:53 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 05:08 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 14:33 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-13 21:06 ` The Hermit Hacker <[email protected]>
2 siblings, 0 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: The Hermit Hacker @ 2003-06-13 21:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Robert Treat <[email protected]>; +Cc: Tom Lane <[email protected]>; Lamar Owen <[email protected]>; Justin Clift <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Fri, 13 Jun 2003, Robert Treat wrote:
> But we do need core's approval to add legitimacy to our efforts,
> especially with some of the "marketing is bad" folks that live on
> -hackers. We also need core's approval to get infrastructure changes
> put into place to help our efforts.
Huh? What infrastructure changes have ever gone through -core?
> This overlooks the fact that you can't earn credibility with some of our
> community unless you hack on the back-end. The uproar over the 7.3 press
> release was a fine example of what happens when the "advocacy" guys try
> to make a change to something non-technical that the "technical" guys
> don't approve of.
Actually, I thought at that time we had agreed to have two seperate press
releases (assuming that that is what you are talking about?) ... one
'marketing driven', and one 'technically driven'?
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 17:29 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 02:53 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-13 13:00 ` Patrick Welche <[email protected]>
2 siblings, 0 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: Patrick Welche @ 2003-06-13 13:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Lamar Owen <[email protected]>; +Cc: Justin Clift <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]
On Thu, Jun 12, 2003 at 10:53:36PM -0400, Lamar Owen wrote:
...
> Common sense is relative. Why must a project expand to be successful? Why is
> more always better? We need more good developers, no doubt. However, take a
> look at how many developers we already have. Maybe we are already
> coordinating well.
.. and I was surprised to see essentially the same "more isn't better" as
one of the reasons for the Mozilla Firebird project:
http://lxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/browser/README.html
(I like the quality over quantity point of view too)
Cheers,
Patrick
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-13 21:38 ` scott.marlowe <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 22:07 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Dennis Gearon <[email protected]>
2 siblings, 1 reply; 44+ messages in thread
From: scott.marlowe @ 2003-06-13 21:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Lamar Owen <[email protected]>; +Cc: Justin Clift <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]
On Thu, 12 Jun 2003, Lamar Owen wrote:
>
> We're not commercial software; why must we act like commercial software?
That's a tag line if ever I've seen one.
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:40 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 15:49 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Lamar Owen <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 21:38 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] scott.marlowe <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-13 22:07 ` Dennis Gearon <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: Dennis Gearon @ 2003-06-13 22:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: scott.marlowe <[email protected]>; +Cc: Lamar Owen <[email protected]>; Justin Clift <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]
OH BABY! You are so right Scott! I guffawed on THAT one!
scott.marlowe wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Jun 2003, Lamar Owen wrote:
>
>>We're not commercial software; why must we act like commercial software?
>
>
> That's a tag line if ever I've seen one.
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
>
> http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
>
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 15:52 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2003-06-11 16:24 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-12 13:21 ` Robert Treat <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: Robert Treat @ 2003-06-12 13:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; +Cc: [email protected] <[email protected]>
On Wed, 2003-06-11 at 12:24, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
> I assume we don't want to mimick FreeBSD's infighting.
>
> I don't have any problem with doing voting, but I will say that the
> stated PostgreSQL core leadership goal, "to do as little as possible",
> has served us well.
>
I don't know, I've often thought that a more active core team could have
helped the project grow more in areas not related to the source code.
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-12 12:28 ` Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 20:57 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2 siblings, 1 reply; 44+ messages in thread
From: Jan Wieck @ 2003-06-12 12:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
Ian Linwood wrote:
> Hello Jan,
>
> Friday, June 6, 2003, 9:12:24 PM, you wrote:
>
>> I think Open Source means more than that. It means especially Open for
>> ideas, open for input. Open for people and companies to join the team,
>> contribute and take part in the decision making. That all is totally
>> impossible in the MySQL project. Not because it could not be done, but
>> because the owner of the commercial product MySQL does not want it to
>> happen.
>
> Although this is an entirely valid opinion. I don't 100% agree with
> this point of view.
>
> Just because a project is open source (OS), doesn't mean that all and
> sundry should have an input.
>
> OS projects should be open to offers of contribution, but projects should
> reserve the right to reject that contribution.
Hell no, I didn't mean that! We sure reserve the right to reject
contributions and make frequently use of that right.
That the PostgreSQL CORE team does not "as such" take strong positions
in technical questions should not indicate a lack of leadership. I think
for the current size of the project and the very mature and civilized
culture of the actual development community, this form of rather passive
leadership is a good fit.
Jan
--
#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
#================================================== [email protected] #
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark]
2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Re: SAP and MySQL ... Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
2003-06-06 12:46 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-09 22:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:28 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
@ 2003-06-12 20:57 ` Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: Jim C. Nasby @ 2003-06-12 20:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jan Wieck <[email protected]>; +Cc: Ian Linwood <[email protected]>
Quite a storm I managed to brew up here... :)
I wasn't trying to insinuate that there was anything wrong with pgsql as
an organization of contributors. I was only suggesting that anyone who
wants to look at a sucessfully run very large open source project take a
look at FBSD.
As others have mentioned, there are probably improvements that could be
made, but then again, there almost always are. Is it worth the
disruption that the change would cause is a better question to ask.
--
Jim C. Nasby (aka Decibel!) [email protected]
Member: Triangle Fraternity, Sports Car Club of America
Give your computer some brain candy! www.distributed.net Team #1828
Windows: "Where do you want to go today?"
Linux: "Where do you want to go tomorrow?"
FreeBSD: "Are you guys coming, or what?"
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
* [PATCH v2 2/4] pg_upgrade: bump minimum supported version to v10
@ 2026-04-17 18:20 Nathan Bossart <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 44+ messages in thread
From: Nathan Bossart @ 2026-04-17 18:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
---
doc/src/sgml/ref/pgupgrade.sgml | 2 +-
src/bin/pg_upgrade/check.c | 157 +----------------------
src/bin/pg_upgrade/controldata.c | 12 +-
src/bin/pg_upgrade/exec.c | 23 ----
src/bin/pg_upgrade/file.c | 164 -------------------------
src/bin/pg_upgrade/multixact_rewrite.c | 11 +-
src/bin/pg_upgrade/pg_upgrade.c | 31 +----
src/bin/pg_upgrade/pg_upgrade.h | 29 -----
src/bin/pg_upgrade/relfilenumber.c | 37 +-----
src/bin/pg_upgrade/version.c | 127 -------------------
10 files changed, 16 insertions(+), 577 deletions(-)
diff --git a/doc/src/sgml/ref/pgupgrade.sgml b/doc/src/sgml/ref/pgupgrade.sgml
index 38ca09b423c..c4ed75211db 100644
--- a/doc/src/sgml/ref/pgupgrade.sgml
+++ b/doc/src/sgml/ref/pgupgrade.sgml
@@ -67,7 +67,7 @@ PostgreSQL documentation
</para>
<para>
- <application>pg_upgrade</application> supports upgrades from 9.2.X and later to the current
+ <application>pg_upgrade</application> supports upgrades from 10.X and later to the current
major release of <productname>PostgreSQL</productname>, including snapshot and beta releases.
</para>
diff --git a/src/bin/pg_upgrade/check.c b/src/bin/pg_upgrade/check.c
index 5a7afe62eab..0813cef2729 100644
--- a/src/bin/pg_upgrade/check.c
+++ b/src/bin/pg_upgrade/check.c
@@ -28,7 +28,6 @@ static void check_for_incompatible_polymorphics(ClusterInfo *cluster);
static void check_for_tables_with_oids(ClusterInfo *cluster);
static void check_for_not_null_inheritance(ClusterInfo *cluster);
static void check_for_gist_inet_ops(ClusterInfo *cluster);
-static void check_for_pg_role_prefix(ClusterInfo *cluster);
static void check_for_new_tablespace_dir(void);
static void check_for_user_defined_encoding_conversions(ClusterInfo *cluster);
static void check_for_unicode_update(ClusterInfo *cluster);
@@ -128,26 +127,6 @@ static DataTypesUsageChecks data_types_usage_checks[] =
.threshold_version = ALL_VERSIONS
},
- /*
- * 9.3 -> 9.4 Fully implement the 'line' data type in 9.4, which
- * previously returned "not enabled" by default and was only functionally
- * enabled with a compile-time switch; as of 9.4 "line" has a different
- * on-disk representation format.
- */
- {
- .status = gettext_noop("Checking for incompatible \"line\" data type"),
- .report_filename = "tables_using_line.txt",
- .base_query =
- "SELECT 'pg_catalog.line'::pg_catalog.regtype AS oid",
- .report_text =
- gettext_noop("Your installation contains the \"line\" data type in user tables.\n"
- "This data type changed its internal and input/output format\n"
- "between your old and new versions so this\n"
- "cluster cannot currently be upgraded. You can\n"
- "drop the problem columns and restart the upgrade.\n"),
- .threshold_version = 903
- },
-
/*
* pg_upgrade only preserves these system values: pg_class.oid pg_type.oid
* pg_enum.oid
@@ -209,30 +188,6 @@ static DataTypesUsageChecks data_types_usage_checks[] =
.threshold_version = 1500
},
- /*
- * It's no longer allowed to create tables or views with "unknown"-type
- * columns. We do not complain about views with such columns, because
- * they should get silently converted to "text" columns during the DDL
- * dump and reload; it seems unlikely to be worth making users do that by
- * hand. However, if there's a table with such a column, the DDL reload
- * will fail, so we should pre-detect that rather than failing
- * mid-upgrade. Worse, if there's a matview with such a column, the DDL
- * reload will silently change it to "text" which won't match the on-disk
- * storage (which is like "cstring"). So we *must* reject that.
- */
- {
- .status = gettext_noop("Checking for invalid \"unknown\" user columns"),
- .report_filename = "tables_using_unknown.txt",
- .base_query =
- "SELECT 'pg_catalog.unknown'::pg_catalog.regtype AS oid",
- .report_text =
- gettext_noop("Your installation contains the \"unknown\" data type in user tables.\n"
- "This data type is no longer allowed in tables, so this cluster\n"
- "cannot currently be upgraded. You can drop the problem columns\n"
- "and restart the upgrade.\n"),
- .threshold_version = 906
- },
-
/*
* PG 12 changed the 'sql_identifier' type storage to be based on name,
* not varchar, which breaks on-disk format for existing data. So we need
@@ -255,23 +210,6 @@ static DataTypesUsageChecks data_types_usage_checks[] =
.threshold_version = 1100
},
- /*
- * JSONB changed its storage format during 9.4 beta, so check for it.
- */
- {
- .status = gettext_noop("Checking for incompatible \"jsonb\" data type in user tables"),
- .report_filename = "tables_using_jsonb.txt",
- .base_query =
- "SELECT 'pg_catalog.jsonb'::pg_catalog.regtype AS oid",
- .report_text =
- gettext_noop("Your installation contains the \"jsonb\" data type in user tables.\n"
- "The internal format of \"jsonb\" changed during 9.4 beta so this\n"
- "cluster cannot currently be upgraded. You can drop the problem \n"
- "columns and restart the upgrade.\n"),
- .threshold_version = MANUAL_CHECK,
- .version_hook = jsonb_9_4_check_applicable
- },
-
/*
* PG 12 removed types abstime, reltime, tinterval.
*/
@@ -712,20 +650,6 @@ check_and_dump_old_cluster(void)
if (GET_MAJOR_VERSION(old_cluster.major_version) <= 1800)
check_for_gist_inet_ops(&old_cluster);
- /*
- * Pre-PG 10 allowed tables with 'unknown' type columns and non WAL logged
- * hash indexes
- */
- if (GET_MAJOR_VERSION(old_cluster.major_version) <= 906)
- {
- if (user_opts.check)
- old_9_6_invalidate_hash_indexes(&old_cluster, true);
- }
-
- /* 9.5 and below should not have roles starting with pg_ */
- if (GET_MAJOR_VERSION(old_cluster.major_version) <= 905)
- check_for_pg_role_prefix(&old_cluster);
-
/*
* While not a check option, we do this now because this is the only time
* the old server is running.
@@ -772,20 +696,6 @@ check_new_cluster(void)
* system boundaries.
*/
check_hard_link(TRANSFER_MODE_SWAP);
-
- /*
- * There are a few known issues with using --swap to upgrade from
- * versions older than 10. For example, the sequence tuple format
- * changed in v10, and the visibility map format changed in 9.6.
- * While such problems are not insurmountable (and we may have to
- * deal with similar problems in the future, anyway), it doesn't
- * seem worth the effort to support swap mode for upgrades from
- * long-unsupported versions.
- */
- if (GET_MAJOR_VERSION(old_cluster.major_version) < 1000)
- pg_fatal("Swap mode can only upgrade clusters from PostgreSQL version %s and later.",
- "10");
-
break;
}
@@ -831,10 +741,6 @@ issue_warnings_and_set_wal_level(void)
*/
start_postmaster(&new_cluster, true);
- /* Reindex hash indexes for old < 10.0 */
- if (GET_MAJOR_VERSION(old_cluster.major_version) <= 906)
- old_9_6_invalidate_hash_indexes(&new_cluster, false);
-
report_extension_updates(&new_cluster);
stop_postmaster(false);
@@ -892,9 +798,9 @@ check_cluster_versions(void)
* upgrades
*/
- if (GET_MAJOR_VERSION(old_cluster.major_version) < 902)
+ if (GET_MAJOR_VERSION(old_cluster.major_version) < 10)
pg_fatal("This utility can only upgrade from PostgreSQL version %s and later.",
- "9.2");
+ "10");
/* Only current PG version is supported as a target */
if (GET_MAJOR_VERSION(new_cluster.major_version) != GET_MAJOR_VERSION(PG_VERSION_NUM))
@@ -1569,12 +1475,10 @@ check_for_incompatible_polymorphics(ClusterInfo *cluster)
", 'array_cat(anyarray,anyarray)'"
", 'array_prepend(anyelement,anyarray)'");
- if (GET_MAJOR_VERSION(cluster->major_version) >= 903)
appendPQExpBufferStr(&old_polymorphics,
", 'array_remove(anyarray,anyelement)'"
", 'array_replace(anyarray,anyelement,anyelement)'");
- if (GET_MAJOR_VERSION(cluster->major_version) >= 905)
appendPQExpBufferStr(&old_polymorphics,
", 'array_position(anyarray,anyelement)'"
", 'array_position(anyarray,anyelement,integer)'"
@@ -1870,63 +1774,6 @@ check_for_gist_inet_ops(ClusterInfo *cluster)
check_ok();
}
-/*
- * check_for_pg_role_prefix()
- *
- * Versions older than 9.6 should not have any pg_* roles
- */
-static void
-check_for_pg_role_prefix(ClusterInfo *cluster)
-{
- PGresult *res;
- PGconn *conn = connectToServer(cluster, "template1");
- int ntups;
- int i_roloid;
- int i_rolname;
- FILE *script = NULL;
- char output_path[MAXPGPATH];
-
- prep_status("Checking for roles starting with \"pg_\"");
-
- snprintf(output_path, sizeof(output_path), "%s/%s",
- log_opts.basedir,
- "pg_role_prefix.txt");
-
- res = executeQueryOrDie(conn,
- "SELECT oid AS roloid, rolname "
- "FROM pg_catalog.pg_roles "
- "WHERE rolname ~ '^pg_'");
-
- ntups = PQntuples(res);
- i_roloid = PQfnumber(res, "roloid");
- i_rolname = PQfnumber(res, "rolname");
- for (int rowno = 0; rowno < ntups; rowno++)
- {
- if (script == NULL && (script = fopen_priv(output_path, "w")) == NULL)
- pg_fatal("could not open file \"%s\": %m", output_path);
- fprintf(script, "%s (oid=%s)\n",
- PQgetvalue(res, rowno, i_rolname),
- PQgetvalue(res, rowno, i_roloid));
- }
-
- PQclear(res);
-
- PQfinish(conn);
-
- if (script)
- {
- fclose(script);
- pg_log(PG_REPORT, "fatal");
- pg_fatal("Your installation contains roles starting with \"pg_\".\n"
- "\"pg_\" is a reserved prefix for system roles. The cluster\n"
- "cannot be upgraded until these roles are renamed.\n"
- "A list of roles starting with \"pg_\" is in the file:\n"
- " %s", output_path);
- }
- else
- check_ok();
-}
-
/*
* Callback function for processing results of query for
* check_for_user_defined_encoding_conversions()'s UpgradeTask. If the query
diff --git a/src/bin/pg_upgrade/controldata.c b/src/bin/pg_upgrade/controldata.c
index cffcd4b0eba..8188355240f 100644
--- a/src/bin/pg_upgrade/controldata.c
+++ b/src/bin/pg_upgrade/controldata.c
@@ -602,14 +602,12 @@ get_control_data(ClusterInfo *cluster)
/* verify that we got all the mandatory pg_control data */
if (!got_xid || !got_oid ||
!got_multi || !got_oldestxid ||
- (!got_oldestmulti &&
- cluster->controldata.cat_ver >= MULTIXACT_FORMATCHANGE_CAT_VER) ||
+ !got_oldestmulti ||
!got_mxoff || (!live_check && !got_nextxlogfile) ||
!got_float8_pass_by_value || !got_align || !got_blocksz ||
!got_largesz || !got_walsz || !got_walseg || !got_ident ||
!got_index || !got_toast ||
- (!got_large_object &&
- cluster->controldata.ctrl_ver >= LARGE_OBJECT_SIZE_PG_CONTROL_VER) ||
+ !got_large_object ||
!got_date_is_int || !got_data_checksum_version ||
(!got_default_char_signedness &&
cluster->controldata.cat_ver >= DEFAULT_CHAR_SIGNEDNESS_CAT_VER))
@@ -630,8 +628,7 @@ get_control_data(ClusterInfo *cluster)
if (!got_multi)
pg_log(PG_REPORT, " latest checkpoint next MultiXactId");
- if (!got_oldestmulti &&
- cluster->controldata.cat_ver >= MULTIXACT_FORMATCHANGE_CAT_VER)
+ if (!got_oldestmulti)
pg_log(PG_REPORT, " latest checkpoint oldest MultiXactId");
if (!got_oldestxid)
@@ -670,8 +667,7 @@ get_control_data(ClusterInfo *cluster)
if (!got_toast)
pg_log(PG_REPORT, " maximum TOAST chunk size");
- if (!got_large_object &&
- cluster->controldata.ctrl_ver >= LARGE_OBJECT_SIZE_PG_CONTROL_VER)
+ if (!got_large_object)
pg_log(PG_REPORT, " large-object chunk size");
if (!got_date_is_int)
diff --git a/src/bin/pg_upgrade/exec.c b/src/bin/pg_upgrade/exec.c
index e1de61f36ee..479557abdcc 100644
--- a/src/bin/pg_upgrade/exec.c
+++ b/src/bin/pg_upgrade/exec.c
@@ -55,16 +55,7 @@ get_bin_version(ClusterInfo *cluster)
if (sscanf(cmd_output, "%*s %*s %d.%d", &v1, &v2) < 1)
pg_fatal("could not get pg_ctl version output from %s", cmd);
- if (v1 < 10)
- {
- /* old style, e.g. 9.6.1 */
- cluster->bin_version = v1 * 10000 + v2 * 100;
- }
- else
- {
- /* new style, e.g. 10.1 */
cluster->bin_version = v1 * 10000;
- }
}
@@ -353,17 +344,7 @@ check_data_dir(ClusterInfo *cluster)
check_single_dir(pg_data, "pg_subtrans");
check_single_dir(pg_data, PG_TBLSPC_DIR);
check_single_dir(pg_data, "pg_twophase");
-
- /* pg_xlog has been renamed to pg_wal in v10 */
- if (GET_MAJOR_VERSION(cluster->major_version) <= 906)
- check_single_dir(pg_data, "pg_xlog");
- else
check_single_dir(pg_data, "pg_wal");
-
- /* pg_clog has been renamed to pg_xact in v10 */
- if (GET_MAJOR_VERSION(cluster->major_version) <= 906)
- check_single_dir(pg_data, "pg_clog");
- else
check_single_dir(pg_data, "pg_xact");
}
@@ -404,10 +385,6 @@ check_bin_dir(ClusterInfo *cluster, bool check_versions)
*/
get_bin_version(cluster);
- /* pg_resetxlog has been renamed to pg_resetwal in version 10 */
- if (GET_MAJOR_VERSION(cluster->bin_version) <= 906)
- check_exec(cluster->bindir, "pg_resetxlog", check_versions);
- else
check_exec(cluster->bindir, "pg_resetwal", check_versions);
if (cluster == &new_cluster)
diff --git a/src/bin/pg_upgrade/file.c b/src/bin/pg_upgrade/file.c
index 5b276008614..af82c0de490 100644
--- a/src/bin/pg_upgrade/file.c
+++ b/src/bin/pg_upgrade/file.c
@@ -20,12 +20,8 @@
#include <linux/fs.h>
#endif
-#include "access/visibilitymapdefs.h"
#include "common/file_perm.h"
#include "pg_upgrade.h"
-#include "storage/bufpage.h"
-#include "storage/checksum.h"
-#include "storage/checksum_impl.h"
/*
@@ -196,166 +192,6 @@ linkFile(const char *src, const char *dst,
}
-/*
- * rewriteVisibilityMap()
- *
- * Transform a visibility map file, copying from src to dst.
- * schemaName/relName are relation's SQL name (used for error messages only).
- *
- * In versions of PostgreSQL prior to catversion 201603011, PostgreSQL's
- * visibility map included one bit per heap page; it now includes two.
- * When upgrading a cluster from before that time to a current PostgreSQL
- * version, we could refuse to copy visibility maps from the old cluster
- * to the new cluster; the next VACUUM would recreate them, but at the
- * price of scanning the entire table. So, instead, we rewrite the old
- * visibility maps in the new format. That way, the all-visible bits
- * remain set for the pages for which they were set previously. The
- * all-frozen bits are never set by this conversion; we leave that to VACUUM.
- */
-void
-rewriteVisibilityMap(const char *fromfile, const char *tofile,
- const char *schemaName, const char *relName)
-{
- int src_fd;
- int dst_fd;
- PGIOAlignedBlock buffer;
- PGIOAlignedBlock new_vmbuf;
- ssize_t totalBytesRead = 0;
- ssize_t src_filesize;
- int rewriteVmBytesPerPage;
- BlockNumber new_blkno = 0;
- struct stat statbuf;
-
- /* Compute number of old-format bytes per new page */
- rewriteVmBytesPerPage = (BLCKSZ - SizeOfPageHeaderData) / 2;
-
- if ((src_fd = open(fromfile, O_RDONLY | PG_BINARY, 0)) < 0)
- pg_fatal("error while copying relation \"%s.%s\": could not open file \"%s\": %m",
- schemaName, relName, fromfile);
-
- if (fstat(src_fd, &statbuf) != 0)
- pg_fatal("error while copying relation \"%s.%s\": could not stat file \"%s\": %m",
- schemaName, relName, fromfile);
-
- if ((dst_fd = open(tofile, O_RDWR | O_CREAT | O_EXCL | PG_BINARY,
- pg_file_create_mode)) < 0)
- pg_fatal("error while copying relation \"%s.%s\": could not create file \"%s\": %m",
- schemaName, relName, tofile);
-
- /* Save old file size */
- src_filesize = statbuf.st_size;
-
- /*
- * Turn each visibility map page into 2 pages one by one. Each new page
- * has the same page header as the old one. If the last section of the
- * last page is empty, we skip it, mostly to avoid turning one-page
- * visibility maps for small relations into two pages needlessly.
- */
- while (totalBytesRead < src_filesize)
- {
- ssize_t bytesRead;
- char *old_cur;
- char *old_break;
- char *old_blkend;
- PageHeaderData pageheader;
- bool old_lastblk;
-
- if ((bytesRead = read(src_fd, buffer.data, BLCKSZ)) != BLCKSZ)
- {
- if (bytesRead < 0)
- pg_fatal("error while copying relation \"%s.%s\": could not read file \"%s\": %m",
- schemaName, relName, fromfile);
- else
- pg_fatal("error while copying relation \"%s.%s\": partial page found in file \"%s\"",
- schemaName, relName, fromfile);
- }
-
- totalBytesRead += BLCKSZ;
- old_lastblk = (totalBytesRead == src_filesize);
-
- /* Save the page header data */
- memcpy(&pageheader, buffer.data, SizeOfPageHeaderData);
-
- /*
- * These old_* variables point to old visibility map page. old_cur
- * points to current position on old page. old_blkend points to end of
- * old block. old_break is the end+1 position on the old page for the
- * data that will be transferred to the current new page.
- */
- old_cur = buffer.data + SizeOfPageHeaderData;
- old_blkend = buffer.data + bytesRead;
- old_break = old_cur + rewriteVmBytesPerPage;
-
- while (old_break <= old_blkend)
- {
- char *new_cur;
- bool empty = true;
- bool old_lastpart;
-
- /* First, copy old page header to new page */
- memcpy(new_vmbuf.data, &pageheader, SizeOfPageHeaderData);
-
- /* Rewriting the last part of the last old page? */
- old_lastpart = old_lastblk && (old_break == old_blkend);
-
- new_cur = new_vmbuf.data + SizeOfPageHeaderData;
-
- /* Process old page bytes one by one, and turn it into new page. */
- while (old_cur < old_break)
- {
- uint8 byte = *(uint8 *) old_cur;
- uint16 new_vmbits = 0;
- int i;
-
- /* Generate new format bits while keeping old information */
- for (i = 0; i < BITS_PER_BYTE; i++)
- {
- if (byte & (1 << i))
- {
- empty = false;
- new_vmbits |=
- VISIBILITYMAP_ALL_VISIBLE << (BITS_PER_HEAPBLOCK * i);
- }
- }
-
- /* Copy new visibility map bytes to new-format page */
- new_cur[0] = (char) (new_vmbits & 0xFF);
- new_cur[1] = (char) (new_vmbits >> 8);
-
- old_cur++;
- new_cur += BITS_PER_HEAPBLOCK;
- }
-
- /* If the last part of the last page is empty, skip writing it */
- if (old_lastpart && empty)
- break;
-
- /* Set new checksum for visibility map page, if enabled */
- if (new_cluster.controldata.data_checksum_version != PG_DATA_CHECKSUM_OFF)
- ((PageHeader) new_vmbuf.data)->pd_checksum =
- pg_checksum_page(new_vmbuf.data, new_blkno);
-
- errno = 0;
- if (write(dst_fd, new_vmbuf.data, BLCKSZ) != BLCKSZ)
- {
- /* if write didn't set errno, assume problem is no disk space */
- if (errno == 0)
- errno = ENOSPC;
- pg_fatal("error while copying relation \"%s.%s\": could not write file \"%s\": %m",
- schemaName, relName, tofile);
- }
-
- /* Advance for next new page */
- old_break += rewriteVmBytesPerPage;
- new_blkno++;
- }
- }
-
- /* Clean up */
- close(dst_fd);
- close(src_fd);
-}
-
void
check_file_clone(void)
{
diff --git a/src/bin/pg_upgrade/multixact_rewrite.c b/src/bin/pg_upgrade/multixact_rewrite.c
index 823984ec8f3..c45b3183684 100644
--- a/src/bin/pg_upgrade/multixact_rewrite.c
+++ b/src/bin/pg_upgrade/multixact_rewrite.c
@@ -25,10 +25,7 @@ static void RecordMultiXactMembers(SlruSegState *members_writer,
* 32-bit offsets to the current format.
*
* Multixids in the range [from_multi, to_multi) are read from the old
- * cluster, and written in the new format. An important edge case is that if
- * from_multi == to_multi, this initializes the new pg_multixact files in the
- * new format without trying to open any old files. (We rely on that when
- * upgrading from PostgreSQL version 9.2 or below.)
+ * cluster, and written in the new format.
*
* Returns the new nextOffset value; the caller should set it in the new
* control file. The new members always start from offset 1, regardless of
@@ -42,6 +39,7 @@ rewrite_multixacts(MultiXactId from_multi, MultiXactId to_multi)
SlruSegState *members_writer;
char dir[MAXPGPATH] = {0};
bool prev_multixid_valid = false;
+ OldMultiXactReader *old_reader;
/*
* The range of valid multi XIDs is unchanged by the conversion (they are
@@ -63,10 +61,6 @@ rewrite_multixacts(MultiXactId from_multi, MultiXactId to_multi)
* Convert old multixids, if needed, by reading them one-by-one from the
* old cluster.
*/
- if (to_multi != from_multi)
- {
- OldMultiXactReader *old_reader;
-
old_reader = AllocOldMultiXactRead(old_cluster.pgdata,
old_cluster.controldata.chkpnt_nxtmulti,
old_cluster.controldata.chkpnt_nxtmxoff);
@@ -113,7 +107,6 @@ rewrite_multixacts(MultiXactId from_multi, MultiXactId to_multi)
}
FreeOldMultiXactReader(old_reader);
- }
/* Write the final 'next' offset to the last SLRU page */
RecordMultiXactOffset(offsets_writer, to_multi,
diff --git a/src/bin/pg_upgrade/pg_upgrade.c b/src/bin/pg_upgrade/pg_upgrade.c
index 2127d297bfe..e5d7920c1b1 100644
--- a/src/bin/pg_upgrade/pg_upgrade.c
+++ b/src/bin/pg_upgrade/pg_upgrade.c
@@ -714,13 +714,6 @@ create_new_objects(void)
end_progress_output();
check_ok();
- /*
- * We don't have minmxids for databases or relations in pre-9.3 clusters,
- * so set those after we have restored the schema.
- */
- if (GET_MAJOR_VERSION(old_cluster.major_version) <= 902)
- set_frozenxids(true);
-
/* update new_cluster info now that we have objects in the databases */
get_db_rel_and_slot_infos(&new_cluster);
}
@@ -777,10 +770,7 @@ copy_xact_xlog_xid(void)
* Copy old commit logs to new data dir. pg_clog has been renamed to
* pg_xact in post-10 clusters.
*/
- copy_subdir_files(GET_MAJOR_VERSION(old_cluster.major_version) <= 906 ?
- "pg_clog" : "pg_xact",
- GET_MAJOR_VERSION(new_cluster.major_version) <= 906 ?
- "pg_clog" : "pg_xact");
+ copy_subdir_files("pg_xact", "pg_xact");
prep_status("Setting oldest XID for new cluster");
exec_prog(UTILITY_LOG_FILE, NULL, true, true,
@@ -809,7 +799,6 @@ copy_xact_xlog_xid(void)
check_ok();
/* Copy or convert pg_multixact files */
- Assert(new_cluster.controldata.cat_ver >= MULTIXACT_FORMATCHANGE_CAT_VER);
Assert(new_cluster.controldata.cat_ver >= MULTIXACTOFFSET_FORMATCHANGE_CAT_VER);
if (old_cluster.controldata.cat_ver >= MULTIXACTOFFSET_FORMATCHANGE_CAT_VER)
{
@@ -844,25 +833,7 @@ copy_xact_xlog_xid(void)
* Determine the range of multixacts to convert.
*/
nxtmulti = old_cluster.controldata.chkpnt_nxtmulti;
- if (old_cluster.controldata.cat_ver >= MULTIXACT_FORMATCHANGE_CAT_VER)
- {
- /* Versions 9.3 - 18: convert all multixids */
oldstMulti = old_cluster.controldata.chkpnt_oldstMulti;
- }
- else
- {
- /*
- * In PostgreSQL 9.2 and below, multitransactions were only used
- * for row locking, and as such don't need to be preserved during
- * upgrade. In that case, we utilize rewrite_multixacts() just to
- * initialize new, empty files in the new format.
- *
- * It's important that the oldest multi is set to the latest value
- * used by the old system, so that multixact.c returns the empty
- * set for multis that might be present on disk.
- */
- oldstMulti = nxtmulti;
- }
/* handle wraparound */
if (nxtmulti < FirstMultiXactId)
nxtmulti = FirstMultiXactId;
diff --git a/src/bin/pg_upgrade/pg_upgrade.h b/src/bin/pg_upgrade/pg_upgrade.h
index 1d767bbda2d..5a0d2045be5 100644
--- a/src/bin/pg_upgrade/pg_upgrade.h
+++ b/src/bin/pg_upgrade/pg_upgrade.h
@@ -101,19 +101,6 @@ extern char *output_files[];
#endif
-/*
- * The format of visibility map was changed with this 9.6 commit.
- */
-#define VISIBILITY_MAP_FROZEN_BIT_CAT_VER 201603011
-
-/*
- * pg_multixact format changed in 9.3 commit 0ac5ad5134f2769ccbaefec73844f85,
- * ("Improve concurrency of foreign key locking") which also updated catalog
- * version to this value. pg_upgrade behavior depends on whether old and new
- * server versions are both newer than this, or only the new one is.
- */
-#define MULTIXACT_FORMATCHANGE_CAT_VER 201301231
-
/*
* MultiXactOffset was changed from 32-bit to 64-bit in version 19, at this
* catalog version. pg_multixact files need to be converted when upgrading
@@ -121,17 +108,6 @@ extern char *output_files[];
*/
#define MULTIXACTOFFSET_FORMATCHANGE_CAT_VER 202512091
-/*
- * large object chunk size added to pg_controldata,
- * commit 5f93c37805e7485488480916b4585e098d3cc883
- */
-#define LARGE_OBJECT_SIZE_PG_CONTROL_VER 942
-
-/*
- * change in JSONB format during 9.4 beta
- */
-#define JSONB_FORMAT_CHANGE_CAT_VER 201409291
-
/*
* The control file was changed to have the default char signedness,
* commit 44fe30fdab6746a287163e7cc093fd36cda8eb92
@@ -429,8 +405,6 @@ void copyFileByRange(const char *src, const char *dst,
const char *schemaName, const char *relName);
void linkFile(const char *src, const char *dst,
const char *schemaName, const char *relName);
-void rewriteVisibilityMap(const char *fromfile, const char *tofile,
- const char *schemaName, const char *relName);
void check_file_clone(void);
void check_copy_file_range(void);
void check_hard_link(transferMode transfer_mode);
@@ -500,10 +474,7 @@ unsigned int str2uint(const char *str);
/* version.c */
-bool jsonb_9_4_check_applicable(ClusterInfo *cluster);
bool protocol_negotiation_supported(const ClusterInfo *cluster);
-void old_9_6_invalidate_hash_indexes(ClusterInfo *cluster,
- bool check_mode);
void report_extension_updates(ClusterInfo *cluster);
diff --git a/src/bin/pg_upgrade/relfilenumber.c b/src/bin/pg_upgrade/relfilenumber.c
index d5088447e0d..ec2ff7acb21 100644
--- a/src/bin/pg_upgrade/relfilenumber.c
+++ b/src/bin/pg_upgrade/relfilenumber.c
@@ -18,7 +18,7 @@
#include "pg_upgrade.h"
static void transfer_single_new_db(FileNameMap *maps, int size, char *old_tablespace, char *new_tablespace);
-static void transfer_relfile(FileNameMap *map, const char *type_suffix, bool vm_must_add_frozenbit);
+static void transfer_relfile(FileNameMap *map, const char *type_suffix);
/*
* The following set of sync_queue_* functions are used for --swap to reduce
@@ -496,25 +496,10 @@ transfer_single_new_db(FileNameMap *maps, int size,
char *old_tablespace, char *new_tablespace)
{
int mapnum;
- bool vm_must_add_frozenbit = false;
-
- /*
- * Do we need to rewrite visibilitymap?
- */
- if (old_cluster.controldata.cat_ver < VISIBILITY_MAP_FROZEN_BIT_CAT_VER &&
- new_cluster.controldata.cat_ver >= VISIBILITY_MAP_FROZEN_BIT_CAT_VER)
- vm_must_add_frozenbit = true;
/* --swap has its own subroutine */
if (user_opts.transfer_mode == TRANSFER_MODE_SWAP)
{
- /*
- * We don't support --swap to upgrade from versions that require
- * rewriting the visibility map. We should've failed already if
- * someone tries to do that.
- */
- Assert(!vm_must_add_frozenbit);
-
do_swap(maps, size, old_tablespace, new_tablespace);
return;
}
@@ -525,13 +510,13 @@ transfer_single_new_db(FileNameMap *maps, int size,
strcmp(maps[mapnum].old_tablespace, old_tablespace) == 0)
{
/* transfer primary file */
- transfer_relfile(&maps[mapnum], "", vm_must_add_frozenbit);
+ transfer_relfile(&maps[mapnum], "");
/*
* Copy/link any fsm and vm files, if they exist
*/
- transfer_relfile(&maps[mapnum], "_fsm", vm_must_add_frozenbit);
- transfer_relfile(&maps[mapnum], "_vm", vm_must_add_frozenbit);
+ transfer_relfile(&maps[mapnum], "_fsm");
+ transfer_relfile(&maps[mapnum], "_vm");
}
}
}
@@ -540,12 +525,10 @@ transfer_single_new_db(FileNameMap *maps, int size,
/*
* transfer_relfile()
*
- * Copy or link file from old cluster to new one. If vm_must_add_frozenbit
- * is true, visibility map forks are converted and rewritten, even in link
- * mode.
+ * Copy or link file from old cluster to new one.
*/
static void
-transfer_relfile(FileNameMap *map, const char *type_suffix, bool vm_must_add_frozenbit)
+transfer_relfile(FileNameMap *map, const char *type_suffix)
{
char old_file[MAXPGPATH];
char new_file[MAXPGPATH];
@@ -604,14 +587,6 @@ transfer_relfile(FileNameMap *map, const char *type_suffix, bool vm_must_add_fro
/* Copying files might take some time, so give feedback. */
pg_log(PG_STATUS, "%s", old_file);
- if (vm_must_add_frozenbit && strcmp(type_suffix, "_vm") == 0)
- {
- /* Need to rewrite visibility map format */
- pg_log(PG_VERBOSE, "rewriting \"%s\" to \"%s\"",
- old_file, new_file);
- rewriteVisibilityMap(old_file, new_file, map->nspname, map->relname);
- }
- else
switch (user_opts.transfer_mode)
{
case TRANSFER_MODE_CLONE:
diff --git a/src/bin/pg_upgrade/version.c b/src/bin/pg_upgrade/version.c
index 047670d4acb..9e83d4659be 100644
--- a/src/bin/pg_upgrade/version.c
+++ b/src/bin/pg_upgrade/version.c
@@ -12,22 +12,6 @@
#include "fe_utils/string_utils.h"
#include "pg_upgrade.h"
-/*
- * version_hook functions for check_for_data_types_usage in order to determine
- * whether a data type check should be executed for the cluster in question or
- * not.
- */
-bool
-jsonb_9_4_check_applicable(ClusterInfo *cluster)
-{
- /* JSONB changed its storage format during 9.4 beta */
- if (GET_MAJOR_VERSION(cluster->major_version) == 904 &&
- cluster->controldata.cat_ver < JSONB_FORMAT_CHANGE_CAT_VER)
- return true;
-
- return false;
-}
-
/*
* Older servers can't support newer protocol versions, so their connection
* strings will need to lock max_protocol_version to 3.0.
@@ -46,117 +30,6 @@ protocol_negotiation_supported(const ClusterInfo *cluster)
return (GET_MAJOR_VERSION(cluster->major_version) >= 1100);
}
-/*
- * old_9_6_invalidate_hash_indexes()
- * 9.6 -> 10
- * Hash index binary format has changed from 9.6->10.0
- */
-void
-old_9_6_invalidate_hash_indexes(ClusterInfo *cluster, bool check_mode)
-{
- int dbnum;
- FILE *script = NULL;
- bool found = false;
- char *output_path = "reindex_hash.sql";
-
- prep_status("Checking for hash indexes");
-
- for (dbnum = 0; dbnum < cluster->dbarr.ndbs; dbnum++)
- {
- PGresult *res;
- bool db_used = false;
- int ntups;
- int rowno;
- int i_nspname,
- i_relname;
- DbInfo *active_db = &cluster->dbarr.dbs[dbnum];
- PGconn *conn = connectToServer(cluster, active_db->db_name);
-
- /* find hash indexes */
- res = executeQueryOrDie(conn,
- "SELECT n.nspname, c.relname "
- "FROM pg_catalog.pg_class c, "
- " pg_catalog.pg_index i, "
- " pg_catalog.pg_am a, "
- " pg_catalog.pg_namespace n "
- "WHERE i.indexrelid = c.oid AND "
- " c.relam = a.oid AND "
- " c.relnamespace = n.oid AND "
- " a.amname = 'hash'"
- );
-
- ntups = PQntuples(res);
- i_nspname = PQfnumber(res, "nspname");
- i_relname = PQfnumber(res, "relname");
- for (rowno = 0; rowno < ntups; rowno++)
- {
- found = true;
- if (!check_mode)
- {
- if (script == NULL && (script = fopen_priv(output_path, "w")) == NULL)
- pg_fatal("could not open file \"%s\": %m", output_path);
- if (!db_used)
- {
- PQExpBufferData connectbuf;
-
- initPQExpBuffer(&connectbuf);
- appendPsqlMetaConnect(&connectbuf, active_db->db_name);
- fputs(connectbuf.data, script);
- termPQExpBuffer(&connectbuf);
- db_used = true;
- }
- fprintf(script, "REINDEX INDEX %s.%s;\n",
- quote_identifier(PQgetvalue(res, rowno, i_nspname)),
- quote_identifier(PQgetvalue(res, rowno, i_relname)));
- }
- }
-
- PQclear(res);
-
- if (!check_mode && db_used)
- {
- /* mark hash indexes as invalid */
- PQclear(executeQueryOrDie(conn,
- "UPDATE pg_catalog.pg_index i "
- "SET indisvalid = false "
- "FROM pg_catalog.pg_class c, "
- " pg_catalog.pg_am a, "
- " pg_catalog.pg_namespace n "
- "WHERE i.indexrelid = c.oid AND "
- " c.relam = a.oid AND "
- " c.relnamespace = n.oid AND "
- " a.amname = 'hash'"));
- }
-
- PQfinish(conn);
- }
-
- if (script)
- fclose(script);
-
- if (found)
- {
- report_status(PG_WARNING, "warning");
- if (check_mode)
- pg_log(PG_WARNING, "\n"
- "Your installation contains hash indexes. These indexes have different\n"
- "internal formats between your old and new clusters, so they must be\n"
- "reindexed with the REINDEX command. After upgrading, you will be given\n"
- "REINDEX instructions.");
- else
- pg_log(PG_WARNING, "\n"
- "Your installation contains hash indexes. These indexes have different\n"
- "internal formats between your old and new clusters, so they must be\n"
- "reindexed with the REINDEX command. The file\n"
- " %s\n"
- "when executed by psql by the database superuser will recreate all invalid\n"
- "indexes; until then, none of these indexes will be used.",
- output_path);
- }
- else
- check_ok();
-}
-
/*
* Callback function for processing results of query for
* report_extension_updates()'s UpgradeTask. If the query returned any rows,
--
2.50.1 (Apple Git-155)
--CT89ko5pLUrsvFtH
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: attachment;
filename=v2-0003-psql-bump-minimum-supported-version-to-v10.patch
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 44+ messages in thread
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2003-05-25 19:37 SAP and MySQL ... Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-05-26 13:50 ` Tommi Maekitalo <[email protected]>
2003-06-04 19:25 ` Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 05:52 ` Hans-Jürgen Schönig <[email protected]>
2003-06-05 21:22 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Ron Mayer <[email protected]>
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2003-06-14 04:06 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2003-06-14 03:54 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
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2003-06-13 21:38 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] scott.marlowe <[email protected]>
2003-06-13 22:07 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Dennis Gearon <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 13:21 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 12:28 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jan Wieck <[email protected]>
2003-06-12 20:57 ` Re: [HACKERS] SAP and MySQL ... [and Benchmark] Jim C. Nasby <[email protected]>
2026-04-17 18:20 [PATCH v2 2/4] pg_upgrade: bump minimum supported version to v10 Nathan Bossart <[email protected]>
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