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* The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced
@ 2019-11-07 14:32 PG Doc comments form <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 15:03 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: PG Doc comments form @ 2019-11-07 14:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: [email protected]; +Cc: [email protected]
The following documentation comment has been logged on the website:
Page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/12/manage-ag-templatedbs.html
Description:
The use of the word virgin as an adjective is incorrect here and also an
anachronism. It is better off replaced with the word pristine - quotes
unnecessary. Note the word virgin appears in another page of the
documentation (a search will find it).
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced
2019-11-07 14:32 The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced PG Doc comments form <[email protected]>
@ 2019-11-07 15:03 ` Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 18:55 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Alvaro Herrera @ 2019-11-07 15:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: [email protected]; [email protected]
On 2019-Nov-07, PG Doc comments form wrote:
> Page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/12/manage-ag-templatedbs.html
> Description:
>
> The use of the word virgin as an adjective is incorrect here and also an
> anachronism. It is better off replaced with the word pristine - quotes
> unnecessary. Note the word virgin appears in another page of the
> documentation (a search will find it).
Just because a word has sexual connotations does not imply that it
doesn't have non-sexual meanings.
Merriam-Webster lists https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/virgin
2: FRESH, UNSPOILED
specifically : not altered by human activity
6: free of impurity or stain : UNSULLIED
which seems to apply well to all cases at hand. Also:
First Known Use of virgin
Noun: 13th century, in the meaning defined at sense 2a
Adjective: 14th century, in the meaning defined at sense 6
History and Etymology for virgin
Noun: Middle English, from Anglo-French virgine, from Latin virgin-, virgo young woman, virgin
That said, in two of the three phrases where the word appears, the quoted
adjective adds no value. We could remove the quoted word entirely in
all three places and nothing would be lost. But if we do that, then the
third occurrence of the word would become inintelligible:
"This is particularly handy when restoring a pg_dump dump: the dump
script should be restored in a virgin database to ensure that one
recreates the correct contents of the dumped database, without
conflicting with objects that might have been added to template1 later
on."
because we have not explained what a "virgin database" is. We could say
"empty", which seems better suited than both "virgin" and "pristine"
anyway.
--
Álvaro Herrera https://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced
2019-11-07 14:32 The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced PG Doc comments form <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 15:03 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
@ 2019-11-07 18:55 ` Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:27 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Daniel Gustafsson @ 2019-11-07 18:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>; +Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]
> On 7 Nov 2019, at 16:03, Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]> wrote:
> because we have not explained what a "virgin database" is.
I think this is the key observation.
> We could say "empty", which seems better suited than both "virgin" and
> "pristine" anyway.
empty is a lot better, but still isn't conveying the state of the database
without there being room for interpretation. (My grasp of the english language
isn't enough to suggest a better alternative however).
cheers ./daniel
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced
2019-11-07 14:32 The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced PG Doc comments form <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 15:03 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 18:55 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
@ 2019-11-07 21:27 ` Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:50 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Bruce Momjian @ 2019-11-07 21:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>; +Cc: Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]
On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 07:55:22PM +0100, Daniel Gustafsson wrote:
> > On 7 Nov 2019, at 16:03, Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > because we have not explained what a "virgin database" is.
>
> I think this is the key observation.
>
> > We could say "empty", which seems better suited than both "virgin" and
> > "pristine" anyway.
>
> empty is a lot better, but still isn't conveying the state of the database
> without there being room for interpretation. (My grasp of the english language
> isn't enough to suggest a better alternative however).
I am thinking "pristine" would be a good word here.
--
Bruce Momjian <[email protected]> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com
+ As you are, so once was I. As I am, so you will be. +
+ Ancient Roman grave inscription +
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced
2019-11-07 14:32 The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced PG Doc comments form <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 15:03 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 18:55 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:27 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
@ 2019-11-07 21:50 ` Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 23:05 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 08:52 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Alvaro Herrera @ 2019-11-07 21:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; +Cc: Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]
On 2019-Nov-07, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 07:55:22PM +0100, Daniel Gustafsson wrote:
> > > On 7 Nov 2019, at 16:03, Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > We could say "empty", which seems better suited than both "virgin" and
> > > "pristine" anyway.
> >
> > empty is a lot better, but still isn't conveying the state of the database
> > without there being room for interpretation. (My grasp of the english language
> > isn't enough to suggest a better alternative however).
>
> I am thinking "pristine" would be a good word here.
But you would have to explain that a database created as a copy of
template1 may somehow not be pristine. Maybe we should just use a
phrase that describes what we mean, something like "a database that
doesn't contain objects other than default system ones."
--
Álvaro Herrera https://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced
2019-11-07 14:32 The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced PG Doc comments form <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 15:03 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 18:55 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:27 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:50 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
@ 2019-11-07 23:05 ` Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Bruce Momjian @ 2019-11-07 23:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>; +Cc: Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]
On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 06:50:10PM -0300, Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> On 2019-Nov-07, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 07:55:22PM +0100, Daniel Gustafsson wrote:
> > > > On 7 Nov 2019, at 16:03, Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > We could say "empty", which seems better suited than both "virgin" and
> > > > "pristine" anyway.
> > >
> > > empty is a lot better, but still isn't conveying the state of the database
> > > without there being room for interpretation. (My grasp of the english language
> > > isn't enough to suggest a better alternative however).
> >
> > I am thinking "pristine" would be a good word here.
>
> But you would have to explain that a database created as a copy of
> template1 may somehow not be pristine. Maybe we should just use a
> phrase that describes what we mean, something like "a database that
> doesn't contain objects other than default system ones."
True.
--
Bruce Momjian <[email protected]> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com
+ As you are, so once was I. As I am, so you will be. +
+ Ancient Roman grave inscription +
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced
2019-11-07 14:32 The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced PG Doc comments form <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 15:03 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 18:55 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:27 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:50 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
@ 2019-11-08 08:52 ` Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 13:10 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Daniel Gustafsson @ 2019-11-08 08:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>; +Cc: Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]
> On 7 Nov 2019, at 22:50, Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> On 2019-Nov-07, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 07:55:22PM +0100, Daniel Gustafsson wrote:
>>>> On 7 Nov 2019, at 16:03, Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>> We could say "empty", which seems better suited than both "virgin" and
>>>> "pristine" anyway.
>>>
>>> empty is a lot better, but still isn't conveying the state of the database
>>> without there being room for interpretation. (My grasp of the english language
>>> isn't enough to suggest a better alternative however).
>>
>> I am thinking "pristine" would be a good word here.
>
> But you would have to explain that a database created as a copy of
> template1 may somehow not be pristine. Maybe we should just use a
> phrase that describes what we mean, something like "a database that
> doesn't contain objects other than default system ones."
Agreed. I like your suggestion, or the inverse of it: "a database without any
user defined objects".
cheers ./daniel
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced
2019-11-07 14:32 The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced PG Doc comments form <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 15:03 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 18:55 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:27 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:50 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 08:52 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
@ 2019-11-08 13:10 ` Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 13:51 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 14:56 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Tom Lane <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Alvaro Herrera @ 2019-11-08 13:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>; +Cc: Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]
On 2019-Nov-08, Daniel Gustafsson wrote:
> Agreed. I like your suggestion, or the inverse of it: "a database without any
> user defined objects".
Here's a proposed patch.
--
Álvaro Herrera https://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced
2019-11-07 14:32 The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced PG Doc comments form <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 15:03 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 18:55 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:27 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:50 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 08:52 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 13:10 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
@ 2019-11-08 13:51 ` Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Daniel Gustafsson @ 2019-11-08 13:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>; +Cc: Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]
> On 8 Nov 2019, at 14:10, Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> On 2019-Nov-08, Daniel Gustafsson wrote:
>
>> Agreed. I like your suggestion, or the inverse of it: "a database without any
>> user defined objects".
>
> Here's a proposed patch.
+1, LGTM
cheers ./daniel
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced
2019-11-07 14:32 The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced PG Doc comments form <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 15:03 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 18:55 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:27 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:50 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 08:52 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 13:10 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
@ 2019-11-08 14:56 ` Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 15:08 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Tom Lane @ 2019-11-08 14:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>; +Cc: Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]
Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]> writes:
> Here's a proposed patch.
I don't like this wording much, because "no user-defined objects"
is not a sufficient specification of what we are talking about.
You need to also capture the property that none of the system-
defined objects have been altered. Now that we explicitly support
things like altering the ACLs of system-defined objects, I do not
think it's okay to take that part for granted.
regards, tom lane
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced
2019-11-07 14:32 The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced PG Doc comments form <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 15:03 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 18:55 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:27 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:50 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 08:52 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 13:10 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 14:56 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Tom Lane <[email protected]>
@ 2019-11-08 15:08 ` Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 15:19 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Tom Lane <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Alvaro Herrera @ 2019-11-08 15:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Tom Lane <[email protected]>; +Cc: Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]
On 2019-Nov-08, Tom Lane wrote:
> Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]> writes:
> > Here's a proposed patch.
>
> I don't like this wording much, because "no user-defined objects"
> is not a sufficient specification of what we are talking about.
> You need to also capture the property that none of the system-
> defined objects have been altered. Now that we explicitly support
> things like altering the ACLs of system-defined objects, I do not
> think it's okay to take that part for granted.
Hmm. Maybe we can say "pristine database" and then add this explanation
in a parenthical comment:
This is particularly handy when restoring a
<literal>pg_dump</literal> dump: the dump script should be restored in a
pristine database (one where no user-defined objects exist and where
system objects have not been altered), to ensure that one recreates
the correct contents of the dumped database, without conflicting
with objects that might have been added to
<literal>template1</literal> later on.
--
Álvaro Herrera https://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced
2019-11-07 14:32 The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced PG Doc comments form <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 15:03 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 18:55 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:27 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:50 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 08:52 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 13:10 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 14:56 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 15:08 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
@ 2019-11-08 15:19 ` Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 15:37 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 16:30 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Tom Lane @ 2019-11-08 15:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>; +Cc: Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]
Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]> writes:
> Hmm. Maybe we can say "pristine database" and then add this explanation
> in a parenthical comment:
> This is particularly handy when restoring a
> <literal>pg_dump</literal> dump: the dump script should be restored in a
> pristine database (one where no user-defined objects exist and where
> system objects have not been altered), to ensure that one recreates
> the correct contents of the dumped database, without conflicting
> with objects that might have been added to
> <literal>template1</literal> later on.
So the patch becomes s/virgin/pristine/g plus add a parenthetical
definition for the first use? Works for me.
regards, tom lane
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced
2019-11-07 14:32 The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced PG Doc comments form <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 15:03 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 18:55 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:27 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:50 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 08:52 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 13:10 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 14:56 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 15:08 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 15:19 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Tom Lane <[email protected]>
@ 2019-11-08 15:37 ` Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-10 14:01 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Brian Williams <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Daniel Gustafsson @ 2019-11-08 15:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Tom Lane <[email protected]>; +Cc: Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]
> On 8 Nov 2019, at 16:19, Tom Lane <[email protected]> wrote:
> So the patch becomes s/virgin/pristine/g plus add a parenthetical
> definition for the first use? Works for me.
Agreed.
cheers ./daniel
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced
2019-11-07 14:32 The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced PG Doc comments form <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 15:03 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 18:55 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:27 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:50 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 08:52 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 13:10 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 14:56 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 15:08 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 15:19 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 15:37 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
@ 2019-11-10 14:01 ` Brian Williams <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Brian Williams @ 2019-11-10 14:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>; +Cc: Tom Lane <[email protected]>; Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]
Everyone,
Thank you for the attention paid to this.
Brian
> On Nov 8, 2019, at 10:37 AM, Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 8 Nov 2019, at 16:19, Tom Lane <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> So the patch becomes s/virgin/pristine/g plus add a parenthetical
>> definition for the first use? Works for me.
>
> Agreed.
>
> cheers ./daniel
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced
2019-11-07 14:32 The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced PG Doc comments form <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 15:03 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 18:55 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:27 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:50 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 08:52 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 13:10 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 14:56 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 15:08 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 15:19 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Tom Lane <[email protected]>
@ 2019-11-08 16:30 ` Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 16:41 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Tom Lane <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Alvaro Herrera @ 2019-11-08 16:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Tom Lane <[email protected]>; +Cc: Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]
On 2019-Nov-08, Tom Lane wrote:
> Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]> writes:
> > Hmm. Maybe we can say "pristine database" and then add this explanation
> > in a parenthical comment:
>
> > This is particularly handy when restoring a
> > <literal>pg_dump</literal> dump: the dump script should be restored in a
> > pristine database (one where no user-defined objects exist and where
> > system objects have not been altered), to ensure that one recreates
> > the correct contents of the dumped database, without conflicting
> > with objects that might have been added to
> > <literal>template1</literal> later on.
>
> So the patch becomes s/virgin/pristine/g plus add a parenthetical
> definition for the first use? Works for me.
Well, there are three uses of the word "virgin". The first is for
"virgin user", and the patch turns that into just "user". The second
one is for "virgin database" and the patch has the effect you describe.
The third one is also s/virgin//.
--
Álvaro Herrera https://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services
Attachments:
[text/x-diff] v2-0001-No-more-virgins.patch (2.3K, 2-v2-0001-No-more-virgins.patch)
download | inline diff:
diff --git a/doc/src/sgml/manage-ag.sgml b/doc/src/sgml/manage-ag.sgml
index 0154064e50..7e7f0ed00c 100644
--- a/doc/src/sgml/manage-ag.sgml
+++ b/doc/src/sgml/manage-ag.sgml
@@ -197,15 +197,17 @@ createdb -O <replaceable>rolename</replaceable> <replaceable>dbname</replaceable
predefined by your version of
<productname>PostgreSQL</productname>. <literal>template0</literal>
should never be changed after the database cluster has been
initialized. By instructing
<command>CREATE DATABASE</command> to copy <literal>template0</literal> instead
- of <literal>template1</literal>, you can create a <quote>virgin</quote> user
+ of <literal>template1</literal>, you can create a user
database that contains none of the site-local additions in
<literal>template1</literal>. This is particularly handy when restoring a
<literal>pg_dump</literal> dump: the dump script should be restored in a
- virgin database to ensure that one recreates the correct contents
+ pristine database (one where no user-defined objects exist and where
+ system objects have not been altered), to ensure that one recreates
+ the correct contents
of the dumped database, without conflicting with objects that
might have been added to <literal>template1</literal> later on.
</para>
<para>
diff --git a/doc/src/sgml/ref/create_database.sgml b/doc/src/sgml/ref/create_database.sgml
index 4014f6703b..e56aca6d30 100644
--- a/doc/src/sgml/ref/create_database.sgml
+++ b/doc/src/sgml/ref/create_database.sgml
@@ -52,11 +52,11 @@ CREATE DATABASE <replaceable class="parameter">name</replaceable>
<para>
By default, the new database will be created by cloning the standard
system database <literal>template1</literal>. A different template can be
specified by writing <literal>TEMPLATE
<replaceable class="parameter">name</replaceable></literal>. In particular,
- by writing <literal>TEMPLATE template0</literal>, you can create a virgin
+ by writing <literal>TEMPLATE template0</literal>, you can create a
database containing only the standard objects predefined by your
version of <productname>PostgreSQL</productname>. This is useful
if you wish to avoid copying
any installation-local objects that might have been added to
<literal>template1</literal>.
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced
2019-11-07 14:32 The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced PG Doc comments form <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 15:03 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 18:55 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:27 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:50 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 08:52 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 13:10 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 14:56 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 15:08 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 15:19 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 16:30 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
@ 2019-11-08 16:41 ` Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2019-11-11 13:14 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Tom Lane @ 2019-11-08 16:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>; +Cc: Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]
Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]> writes:
> On 2019-Nov-08, Tom Lane wrote:
>> So the patch becomes s/virgin/pristine/g plus add a parenthetical
>> definition for the first use? Works for me.
> Well, there are three uses of the word "virgin". The first is for
> "virgin user", and the patch turns that into just "user".
Uh, no, read the next lines. In both cases those are referring
to "virgin user database" or "virgin database", and this patch
is removing an important qualifier. It needs to be s/virgin/pristine/
in all these places.
Since the third case is well separated from the other two, maybe
we need to repeat the parenthetical definition there too.
regards, tom lane
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced
2019-11-07 14:32 The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced PG Doc comments form <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 15:03 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 18:55 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:27 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:50 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 08:52 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 13:10 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 14:56 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 15:08 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 15:19 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 16:30 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 16:41 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Tom Lane <[email protected]>
@ 2019-11-11 13:14 ` Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-11 14:29 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Tom Lane <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Alvaro Herrera @ 2019-11-11 13:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Tom Lane <[email protected]>; +Cc: Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]
On 2019-Nov-08, Tom Lane wrote:
> Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]> writes:
> > On 2019-Nov-08, Tom Lane wrote:
> >> So the patch becomes s/virgin/pristine/g plus add a parenthetical
> >> definition for the first use? Works for me.
>
> > Well, there are three uses of the word "virgin". The first is for
> > "virgin user", and the patch turns that into just "user".
>
> Uh, no, read the next lines. In both cases those are referring
> to "virgin user database" or "virgin database", and this patch
> is removing an important qualifier. It needs to be s/virgin/pristine/
> in all these places.
Doh, right.
One problem with doing it that way is that the proposed parenthical
comment partly duplicates the text immediately following it, so I'm no
longer so sure that adding it is good; I think that changing "local
additions" to "local additions and changes" might be sufficient, or
maybe that is too obscure for novices? For create_database.sgml it does
seem to make a little more sense, but I'm not 100% there either.
Maybe "changes" can become "database-local system changes"? i.e.,
By instructing CREATE DATABASE to copy template0 instead of
template1, you can create a pristine user database that contains
none of the site-local additions and database-local system changes
in template1.
... though, argh, "-local" appearing twice makes that look bad too :-(
(I'm not sure that it is clear what a "database-local system change" is.)
--
Álvaro Herrera https://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services
Attachments:
[text/x-diff] v3-0001-No-more-virgins.patch (2.2K, 2-v3-0001-No-more-virgins.patch)
download | inline diff:
diff --git a/doc/src/sgml/manage-ag.sgml b/doc/src/sgml/manage-ag.sgml
index 0154064e50..00ecc2d843 100644
--- a/doc/src/sgml/manage-ag.sgml
+++ b/doc/src/sgml/manage-ag.sgml
@@ -199,11 +199,11 @@ createdb -O <replaceable>rolename</replaceable> <replaceable>dbname</replaceable
should never be changed after the database cluster has been
initialized. By instructing
<command>CREATE DATABASE</command> to copy <literal>template0</literal> instead
- of <literal>template1</literal>, you can create a <quote>virgin</quote> user
- database that contains none of the site-local additions in
+ of <literal>template1</literal>, you can create a <quote>pristine</quote> user
+ database that contains none of the site-local additions and changes in
<literal>template1</literal>. This is particularly handy when restoring a
<literal>pg_dump</literal> dump: the dump script should be restored in a
- virgin database to ensure that one recreates the correct contents
+ pristine database to ensure that one recreates the correct contents
of the dumped database, without conflicting with objects that
might have been added to <literal>template1</literal> later on.
</para>
diff --git a/doc/src/sgml/ref/create_database.sgml b/doc/src/sgml/ref/create_database.sgml
index 4014f6703b..7b48263364 100644
--- a/doc/src/sgml/ref/create_database.sgml
+++ b/doc/src/sgml/ref/create_database.sgml
@@ -54,8 +54,10 @@ CREATE DATABASE <replaceable class="parameter">name</replaceable>
system database <literal>template1</literal>. A different template can be
specified by writing <literal>TEMPLATE
<replaceable class="parameter">name</replaceable></literal>. In particular,
- by writing <literal>TEMPLATE template0</literal>, you can create a virgin
- database containing only the standard objects predefined by your
+ by writing <literal>TEMPLATE template0</literal>, you can create a
+ pristine database (one where no user-defined objects exist and where
+ system objects have not been altered)
+ containing only the standard objects predefined by your
version of <productname>PostgreSQL</productname>. This is useful
if you wish to avoid copying
any installation-local objects that might have been added to
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced
2019-11-07 14:32 The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced PG Doc comments form <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 15:03 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 18:55 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:27 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:50 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 08:52 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 13:10 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 14:56 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 15:08 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 15:19 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 16:30 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 16:41 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2019-11-11 13:14 ` Re: The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
@ 2019-11-11 14:29 ` Tom Lane <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Tom Lane @ 2019-11-11 14:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>; +Cc: Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]
Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]> writes:
> One problem with doing it that way is that the proposed parenthical
> comment partly duplicates the text immediately following it, so I'm no
> longer so sure that adding it is good; I think that changing "local
> additions" to "local additions and changes" might be sufficient, or
> maybe that is too obscure for novices? For create_database.sgml it does
> seem to make a little more sense, but I'm not 100% there either.
I think we should stick to the wording we've agreed to be clearer.
Maybe do manage-ag.sgml like so:
By instructing CREATE DATABASE to copy template0 instead of
template1, you can create a pristine user database, that is one where
no user-defined objects exist and where system objects have not been
altered. This is particularly handy ...
regards, tom lane
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 18+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2019-11-11 14:29 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 18+ messages (download: mbox mbox.gz follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2019-11-07 14:32 The word "virgin" used incorrectly and probably better off replaced PG Doc comments form <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 15:03 ` Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 18:55 ` Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:27 ` Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 21:50 ` Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-07 23:05 ` Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 08:52 ` Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 13:10 ` Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 13:51 ` Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 14:56 ` Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 15:08 ` Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 15:19 ` Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 15:37 ` Daniel Gustafsson <[email protected]>
2019-11-10 14:01 ` Brian Williams <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 16:30 ` Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-08 16:41 ` Tom Lane <[email protected]>
2019-11-11 13:14 ` Alvaro Herrera <[email protected]>
2019-11-11 14:29 ` Tom Lane <[email protected]>
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