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* Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;)
@ 2023-09-06 23:48 Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2023-09-06 23:52 ` Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Katherine Mcmillan <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 08:22 ` Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Magnus Hagander <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Justin Clift @ 2023-09-06 23:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: PostgreSQL Advocacy <[email protected]>
Heh Heh Heh. This is pretty funny:
https://www.theregister.com/2023/09/05/birmingham_city_council_oracle/
"Birmingham City Council, the largest local authority in Europe, has
declared itself in financial distress after troubled Oracle project
costs ballooned from £20 million to around £100 million ($125.5
million)."
Wonder if they'll make the smart choice next time around, and choose PG
+ a decent vendor instead? :)
+ Justin
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;)
2023-09-06 23:48 Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Justin Clift <[email protected]>
@ 2023-09-06 23:52 ` Katherine Mcmillan <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Katherine Mcmillan @ 2023-09-06 23:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Justin Clift <[email protected]>; +Cc: PostgreSQL Advocacy <[email protected]>
Nice find Justin. I guess this little puppy is still ongoing as well: https://www.theregister.com/2023/05/12/github_microsoft_openai_copilot/
[https://regmedia.co.uk/2023/05/12/denied_shutterstock.jpg]<https://www.theregister.com/2023/05/12/github_microsoft_openai_copilot/;
GitHub and OpenAI fail to wriggle out of Copilot lawsuit<https://www.theregister.com/2023/05/12/github_microsoft_openai_copilot/;
Judge won't toss out two key charges, software source slurping case still on
www.theregister.com
-Katie
________________________________
From: Justin Clift <[email protected]>
Sent: 06 September 2023 19:48
To: PostgreSQL Advocacy <[email protected]>
Subject: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;)
Attention : courriel externe | external email
Heh Heh Heh. This is pretty funny:
https://www.theregister.com/2023/09/05/birmingham_city_council_oracle/
"Birmingham City Council, the largest local authority in Europe, has
declared itself in financial distress after troubled Oracle project
costs ballooned from £20 million to around £100 million ($125.5
million)."
Wonder if they'll make the smart choice next time around, and choose PG
+ a decent vendor instead? :)
+ Justin
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;)
2023-09-06 23:48 Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Justin Clift <[email protected]>
@ 2023-09-07 08:22 ` Magnus Hagander <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 08:28 ` Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Dave Page <[email protected]>
2023-09-09 15:13 ` Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Masa O <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 2 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Magnus Hagander @ 2023-09-07 08:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Justin Clift <[email protected]>; +Cc: PostgreSQL Advocacy <[email protected]>
On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 1:49 AM Justin Clift <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Heh Heh Heh. This is pretty funny:
>
> https://www.theregister.com/2023/09/05/birmingham_city_council_oracle/
>
> "Birmingham City Council, the largest local authority in Europe, has
> declared itself in financial distress after troubled Oracle project
> costs ballooned from £20 million to around £100 million ($125.5
> million)."
>
> Wonder if they'll make the smart choice next time around, and choose PG
> + a decent vendor instead? :)
In fairness, that project is about Oracle Fusion, not the database. So
PG doesn't have a competing product. There are opensource ERP products
out there, but I'm not sure they're advanced enough to handle
something like that...
--
Magnus Hagander
Me: https://www.hagander.net/
Work: https://www.redpill-linpro.com/
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;)
2023-09-06 23:48 Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 08:22 ` Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Magnus Hagander <[email protected]>
@ 2023-09-07 08:28 ` Dave Page <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 08:50 ` Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Benjamin Scherrey <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Dave Page @ 2023-09-07 08:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Magnus Hagander <[email protected]>; +Cc: Justin Clift <[email protected]>; PostgreSQL Advocacy <[email protected]>
On Thu, 7 Sept 2023 at 09:23, Magnus Hagander <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 1:49 AM Justin Clift <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Heh Heh Heh. This is pretty funny:
> >
> >
> https://www.theregister.com/2023/09/05/birmingham_city_council_oracle/
> >
> > "Birmingham City Council, the largest local authority in Europe, has
> > declared itself in financial distress after troubled Oracle project
> > costs ballooned from £20 million to around £100 million ($125.5
> > million)."
> >
> > Wonder if they'll make the smart choice next time around, and choose PG
> > + a decent vendor instead? :)
>
> In fairness, that project is about Oracle Fusion, not the database. So
> PG doesn't have a competing product. There are opensource ERP products
> out there, but I'm not sure they're advanced enough to handle
> something like that...
>
Indeed. It also only amounts for a fraction of the council's liabilities.
The vast majority is from an equal pay judgement against them, which iirc,
totals a couple of billion pounds (of which they've paid off over half in
the last decade I believe).
So, yeah, the Oracle thing is a massive screw up. But it's not what caused
the majority of their problems.
--
Dave Page
pgAdmin: https://www.pgadmin.org
PostgreSQL: https://www.postgresql.org
EDB: https://www.enterprisedb.com
PGDay UK 2023, September 12, London: https://2023.pgday.uk
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;)
2023-09-06 23:48 Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 08:22 ` Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Magnus Hagander <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 08:28 ` Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Dave Page <[email protected]>
@ 2023-09-07 08:50 ` Benjamin Scherrey <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 09:49 ` Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Chris Travers <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Benjamin Scherrey @ 2023-09-07 08:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dave Page <[email protected]>; +Cc: Magnus Hagander <[email protected]>; Justin Clift <[email protected]>; PostgreSQL Advocacy <[email protected]>
Well a) the costs of the system (still undelivered) is 4x the initial
contract ; and b) they've determined that the ERP was incapable of
performing the functions of the contract because it orientation for
manufacturing rather than HR. So not even Oracle has a competing product!
On Thu, Sep 7, 2023, 4:28 PM Dave Page <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 7 Sept 2023 at 09:23, Magnus Hagander <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 1:49 AM Justin Clift <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Heh Heh Heh. This is pretty funny:
>> >
>> >
>> https://www.theregister.com/2023/09/05/birmingham_city_council_oracle/
>> >
>> > "Birmingham City Council, the largest local authority in Europe, has
>> > declared itself in financial distress after troubled Oracle project
>> > costs ballooned from £20 million to around £100 million ($125.5
>> > million)."
>> >
>> > Wonder if they'll make the smart choice next time around, and choose PG
>> > + a decent vendor instead? :)
>>
>> In fairness, that project is about Oracle Fusion, not the database. So
>> PG doesn't have a competing product. There are opensource ERP products
>> out there, but I'm not sure they're advanced enough to handle
>> something like that...
>>
>
> Indeed. It also only amounts for a fraction of the council's liabilities.
> The vast majority is from an equal pay judgement against them, which iirc,
> totals a couple of billion pounds (of which they've paid off over half in
> the last decade I believe).
>
> So, yeah, the Oracle thing is a massive screw up. But it's not what caused
> the majority of their problems.
>
> --
> Dave Page
> pgAdmin: https://www.pgadmin.org
> PostgreSQL: https://www.postgresql.org
> EDB: https://www.enterprisedb.com
>
> PGDay UK 2023, September 12, London: https://2023.pgday.uk
>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;)
2023-09-06 23:48 Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 08:22 ` Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Magnus Hagander <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 08:28 ` Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Dave Page <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 08:50 ` Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Benjamin Scherrey <[email protected]>
@ 2023-09-07 09:49 ` Chris Travers <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 09:54 ` Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Dave Page <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 14:59 ` Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Adrian Klaver <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Chris Travers @ 2023-09-07 09:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Benjamin Scherrey <[email protected]>; +Cc: Dave Page <[email protected]>; Magnus Hagander <[email protected]>; Justin Clift <[email protected]>; PostgreSQL Advocacy <[email protected]>
An important lesson here is to always sit down with a client and understand
their needs before selling an ERP.......
On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 3:51 PM Benjamin Scherrey <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Well a) the costs of the system (still undelivered) is 4x the initial
> contract ; and b) they've determined that the ERP was incapable of
> performing the functions of the contract because it orientation for
> manufacturing rather than HR. So not even Oracle has a competing product!
>
> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023, 4:28 PM Dave Page <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 7 Sept 2023 at 09:23, Magnus Hagander <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 1:49 AM Justin Clift <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Heh Heh Heh. This is pretty funny:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> https://www.theregister.com/2023/09/05/birmingham_city_council_oracle/
>>> >
>>> > "Birmingham City Council, the largest local authority in Europe, has
>>> > declared itself in financial distress after troubled Oracle project
>>> > costs ballooned from £20 million to around £100 million ($125.5
>>> > million)."
>>> >
>>> > Wonder if they'll make the smart choice next time around, and choose PG
>>> > + a decent vendor instead? :)
>>>
>>> In fairness, that project is about Oracle Fusion, not the database. So
>>> PG doesn't have a competing product. There are opensource ERP products
>>> out there, but I'm not sure they're advanced enough to handle
>>> something like that...
>>>
>>
>> Indeed. It also only amounts for a fraction of the council's liabilities.
>> The vast majority is from an equal pay judgement against them, which iirc,
>> totals a couple of billion pounds (of which they've paid off over half in
>> the last decade I believe).
>>
>> So, yeah, the Oracle thing is a massive screw up. But it's not what
>> caused the majority of their problems.
>>
>> --
>> Dave Page
>> pgAdmin: https://www.pgadmin.org
>> PostgreSQL: https://www.postgresql.org
>> EDB: https://www.enterprisedb.com
>>
>> PGDay UK 2023, September 12, London: https://2023.pgday.uk
>>
>>
>>
--
Best Wishes,
Chris Travers
Efficito: Hosted Accounting and ERP. Robust and Flexible. No vendor
lock-in.
http://www.efficito.com/learn_more
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;)
2023-09-06 23:48 Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 08:22 ` Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Magnus Hagander <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 08:28 ` Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Dave Page <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 08:50 ` Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Benjamin Scherrey <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 09:49 ` Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Chris Travers <[email protected]>
@ 2023-09-07 09:54 ` Dave Page <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Dave Page @ 2023-09-07 09:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Chris Travers <[email protected]>; +Cc: Benjamin Scherrey <[email protected]>; Magnus Hagander <[email protected]>; Justin Clift <[email protected]>; PostgreSQL Advocacy <[email protected]>
On Thu, 7 Sept 2023 at 10:51, Chris Travers <[email protected]> wrote:
> An important lesson here is to always sit down with a client and
> understand their needs before selling an ERP.......
>
Meanwhile, there's a sales guy (well, team) somewhere feeling very happy
about all the consulting hours they're booking and what their commission is
going to be...
>
> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 3:51 PM Benjamin Scherrey <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Well a) the costs of the system (still undelivered) is 4x the initial
>> contract ; and b) they've determined that the ERP was incapable of
>> performing the functions of the contract because it orientation for
>> manufacturing rather than HR. So not even Oracle has a competing product!
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023, 4:28 PM Dave Page <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 7 Sept 2023 at 09:23, Magnus Hagander <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 1:49 AM Justin Clift <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Heh Heh Heh. This is pretty funny:
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> https://www.theregister.com/2023/09/05/birmingham_city_council_oracle/
>>>> >
>>>> > "Birmingham City Council, the largest local authority in Europe,
>>>> has
>>>> > declared itself in financial distress after troubled Oracle
>>>> project
>>>> > costs ballooned from £20 million to around £100 million ($125.5
>>>> > million)."
>>>> >
>>>> > Wonder if they'll make the smart choice next time around, and choose
>>>> PG
>>>> > + a decent vendor instead? :)
>>>>
>>>> In fairness, that project is about Oracle Fusion, not the database. So
>>>> PG doesn't have a competing product. There are opensource ERP products
>>>> out there, but I'm not sure they're advanced enough to handle
>>>> something like that...
>>>>
>>>
>>> Indeed. It also only amounts for a fraction of the council's
>>> liabilities. The vast majority is from an equal pay judgement against them,
>>> which iirc, totals a couple of billion pounds (of which they've paid off
>>> over half in the last decade I believe).
>>>
>>> So, yeah, the Oracle thing is a massive screw up. But it's not what
>>> caused the majority of their problems.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dave Page
>>> pgAdmin: https://www.pgadmin.org
>>> PostgreSQL: https://www.postgresql.org
>>> EDB: https://www.enterprisedb.com
>>>
>>> PGDay UK 2023, September 12, London: https://2023.pgday.uk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
> --
> Best Wishes,
> Chris Travers
>
> Efficito: Hosted Accounting and ERP. Robust and Flexible. No vendor
> lock-in.
> http://www.efficito.com/learn_more
>
--
Dave Page
pgAdmin: https://www.pgadmin.org
PostgreSQL: https://www.postgresql.org
EDB: https://www.enterprisedb.com
PGDay UK 2023, September 12, London: https://2023.pgday.uk
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;)
2023-09-06 23:48 Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 08:22 ` Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Magnus Hagander <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 08:28 ` Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Dave Page <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 08:50 ` Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Benjamin Scherrey <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 09:49 ` Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Chris Travers <[email protected]>
@ 2023-09-07 14:59 ` Adrian Klaver <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Adrian Klaver @ 2023-09-07 14:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Chris Travers <[email protected]>; Benjamin Scherrey <[email protected]>; +Cc: Dave Page <[email protected]>; Magnus Hagander <[email protected]>; Justin Clift <[email protected]>; PostgreSQL Advocacy <[email protected]>
On 9/7/23 02:49, Chris Travers wrote:
> An important lesson here is to always sit down with a client and
> understand their needs before selling an ERP.......
Unless you have a legal department that will run the customer into the
ground with litigation. In a somewhat related case:
https://www.doj.state.or.us/media-home/news-media-releases/oregon-oracle-reach-settlement-worth-more...
Where Oracle ended settling by paying ~$35 million in cash and ~$60
million in credits for a failed project with the state of Oregon that
they collected $240 million for.
--
Adrian Klaver
[email protected]
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;)
2023-09-06 23:48 Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 08:22 ` Re: Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Magnus Hagander <[email protected]>
@ 2023-09-09 15:13 ` Masa O <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Masa O @ 2023-09-09 15:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: [email protected]
If civil servants adopt the age-old pay-for-value strategy, the
“zero-failure ERP implementation strategy”, citizens will only lose very
little:
1. Let the city's own IT staff implement the project.
2. They hire only one consultant to train these IT people in all the
necessary skills to implement their project with a decent ERP development
and execution framework powered by PostgreSQL to implement their projects.
City consulates will try to limit overall training days to 5 days unless
their IT staff does not have PostgreSQL, basic accounting, and large
database design skills.
3. If the majority of IT staff or end users are not satisfied with the
above ERP framework during implementation, City Consul will not purchase
the ERP framework.
On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 4:23 PM Magnus Hagander <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 1:49 AM Justin Clift <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Heh Heh Heh. This is pretty funny:
> >
> >
> https://www.theregister.com/2023/09/05/birmingham_city_council_oracle/
> >
> > "Birmingham City Council, the largest local authority in Europe, has
> > declared itself in financial distress after troubled Oracle project
> > costs ballooned from £20 million to around £100 million ($125.5
> > million)."
> >
> > Wonder if they'll make the smart choice next time around, and choose PG
> > + a decent vendor instead? :)
>
> In fairness, that project is about Oracle Fusion, not the database. So
> PG doesn't have a competing product. There are opensource ERP products
> out there, but I'm not sure they're advanced enough to handle
> something like that...
>
> --
> Magnus Hagander
> Me: https://www.hagander.net/
> Work: https://www.redpill-linpro.com/
>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 9+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2023-09-09 15:13 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 9+ messages (download: mbox mbox.gz follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2023-09-06 23:48 Birmingham City Council chose Oracle, went broke because of it ;) Justin Clift <[email protected]>
2023-09-06 23:52 ` Katherine Mcmillan <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 08:22 ` Magnus Hagander <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 08:28 ` Dave Page <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 08:50 ` Benjamin Scherrey <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 09:49 ` Chris Travers <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 09:54 ` Dave Page <[email protected]>
2023-09-07 14:59 ` Adrian Klaver <[email protected]>
2023-09-09 15:13 ` Masa O <[email protected]>
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