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* Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
@ 2004-11-12 02:38 Omar Kilani <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 17:19 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 11:58 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Thomas Hallgren <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Omar Kilani @ 2004-11-12 02:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: pgsql-www; [email protected]
Hi Again,
We would like to put forward an alternate design to the current wwwdevel
design.
It is available at: http://postgresql.tinysofa.com/
We believe that it is clean, professional and simple. And it makes the
release of 8.0 actually... exciting. :)
It is a *drop-in* replacement for the current pgweb design. No
additional work is required to retrofit the current wwwdevel design.
It's already done!
It validates. It is designed for 800x600 and up. And it looks pretty. :)
By clicking "About", you can see the design for the section navigation
and the sponsor box.
We've gone through a bit of the current content and fixed it up with
proper headings and so forth. But we believe that the content needs to
be restructured to fit within navigational guide lines.
Some issues with the current content of the site:
* There really isn't much there. A lot of the content is obviously
written by separate people with different writing styles. The content
also presumes that the reader has a lot of technical knowledge.
* Many links just point to external websites without warning. The
content should be pulled into the main site, or put under an "External
Sources" heading.
* The overuse of subdomains is a major pain. Each subdomain uses a
completely different layout and design. X.postgresql.org should be under
the relevant section on the main site. Advocacy should move under
/about/. Developers has it's own section. Tech docs should move under
Documentation, etc.
Of course, we're willing to help out with the content if our design is
used. :)
Regards,
Emily Boyd
- and -
Omar Kilani
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 02:38 Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Omar Kilani <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 17:19 ` Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:00 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 59+ messages in thread
From: Josh Berkus @ 2004-11-12 17:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: [email protected]; +Cc: Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
Omar,
> We believe that it is clean, professional and simple. And it makes the
> release of 8.0 actually... exciting. :)
I like the organization of content. I find the graphics a bit HP-ish, but
that's work-on-able. It's certainly less crowded than our current design,
and you've done a nice job making things a lot more intuitively findable.
> It is a *drop-in* replacement for the current pgweb design. No
> additional work is required to retrofit the current wwwdevel design.
> It's already done!
Keen, this makes a discussion about it more useful. Thank you for going the
extra mile and dealing with some of the drill-down pages; it really gives us
an idea of how you envision the site being organized.
> We've gone through a bit of the current content and fixed it up with
> proper headings and so forth. But we believe that the content needs to
> be restructured to fit within navigational guide lines.
No arguments here ... see the collected archives of www.
> * The overuse of subdomains is a major pain. Each subdomain uses a
> completely different layout and design. X.postgresql.org should be under
> the relevant section on the main site. Advocacy should move under
> /about/. Developers has it's own section. Tech docs should move under
> Documentation, etc.
We've had a consolidation plan for over a year. Really, you should engage
more of a dialoge in the WWW list and talk to us about what's already
planned.
Techdocs is one hitch; article generation/editing needs to be handled by some
kind of online text editor. Otherwise we limit contributors to the current
WWW team and nothing gets written.
Of course, it would also be a really good idea to have any part of the site
requiring significant maintenance .... such as the list of GUIs, the
contributor list, or consulting companies ... to be editable via simple text
editor or html form instead of via raw XHTML. This would allow the general
pool of documentation volunteers -- which is 5x large than WWW volunteers --
to maintain these areas.
--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 02:38 Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Omar Kilani <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 17:19 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 18:00 ` Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 19:40 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:17 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Bruce Momjian @ 2004-11-12 18:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; +Cc: [email protected]; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
Is the new website going to be rolled out in time for the 8.0 release,
which could be in the next few weeks?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Josh Berkus wrote:
> Omar,
>
> > We believe that it is clean, professional and simple. And it makes the
> > release of 8.0 actually... exciting. :)
>
> I like the organization of content. I find the graphics a bit HP-ish, but
> that's work-on-able. It's certainly less crowded than our current design,
> and you've done a nice job making things a lot more intuitively findable.
>
> > It is a *drop-in* replacement for the current pgweb design. No
> > additional work is required to retrofit the current wwwdevel design.
> > It's already done!
>
> Keen, this makes a discussion about it more useful. Thank you for going the
> extra mile and dealing with some of the drill-down pages; it really gives us
> an idea of how you envision the site being organized.
>
> > We've gone through a bit of the current content and fixed it up with
> > proper headings and so forth. But we believe that the content needs to
> > be restructured to fit within navigational guide lines.
>
> No arguments here ... see the collected archives of www.
>
> > * The overuse of subdomains is a major pain. Each subdomain uses a
> > completely different layout and design. X.postgresql.org should be under
> > the relevant section on the main site. Advocacy should move under
> > /about/. Developers has it's own section. Tech docs should move under
> > Documentation, etc.
>
> We've had a consolidation plan for over a year. Really, you should engage
> more of a dialoge in the WWW list and talk to us about what's already
> planned.
>
> Techdocs is one hitch; article generation/editing needs to be handled by some
> kind of online text editor. Otherwise we limit contributors to the current
> WWW team and nothing gets written.
>
> Of course, it would also be a really good idea to have any part of the site
> requiring significant maintenance .... such as the list of GUIs, the
> contributor list, or consulting companies ... to be editable via simple text
> editor or html form instead of via raw XHTML. This would allow the general
> pool of documentation volunteers -- which is 5x large than WWW volunteers --
> to maintain these areas.
>
> --
> Josh Berkus
> Aglio Database Solutions
> San Francisco
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
> subscribe-nomail command to [email protected] so that your
> message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
>
--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
[email protected] | (610) 359-1001
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 02:38 Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Omar Kilani <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 17:19 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:00 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 19:40 ` Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 21:13 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 59+ messages in thread
From: Robert Treat @ 2004-11-12 19:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; +Cc: Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; [email protected]; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
It is not outside the realm of possibility, but I'm not optimistic as
there are still a number of TODO items we need to finish up...
Of course if folks feel this is something that needs to happen we could
possibly toss some things out, but there has been some reservations
about launching a new site at the same time as a major release.
Robert Treat
On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 13:00, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
> Is the new website going to be rolled out in time for the 8.0 release,
> which could be in the next few weeks?
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Josh Berkus wrote:
> > Omar,
> >
> > > We believe that it is clean, professional and simple. And it makes the
> > > release of 8.0 actually... exciting. :)
> >
> > I like the organization of content. I find the graphics a bit HP-ish, but
> > that's work-on-able. It's certainly less crowded than our current design,
> > and you've done a nice job making things a lot more intuitively findable.
> >
> > > It is a *drop-in* replacement for the current pgweb design. No
> > > additional work is required to retrofit the current wwwdevel design.
> > > It's already done!
> >
> > Keen, this makes a discussion about it more useful. Thank you for going the
> > extra mile and dealing with some of the drill-down pages; it really gives us
> > an idea of how you envision the site being organized.
> >
> > > We've gone through a bit of the current content and fixed it up with
> > > proper headings and so forth. But we believe that the content needs to
> > > be restructured to fit within navigational guide lines.
> >
> > No arguments here ... see the collected archives of www.
> >
> > > * The overuse of subdomains is a major pain. Each subdomain uses a
> > > completely different layout and design. X.postgresql.org should be under
> > > the relevant section on the main site. Advocacy should move under
> > > /about/. Developers has it's own section. Tech docs should move under
> > > Documentation, etc.
> >
> > We've had a consolidation plan for over a year. Really, you should engage
> > more of a dialoge in the WWW list and talk to us about what's already
> > planned.
> >
> > Techdocs is one hitch; article generation/editing needs to be handled by some
> > kind of online text editor. Otherwise we limit contributors to the current
> > WWW team and nothing gets written.
> >
> > Of course, it would also be a really good idea to have any part of the site
> > requiring significant maintenance .... such as the list of GUIs, the
> > contributor list, or consulting companies ... to be editable via simple text
> > editor or html form instead of via raw XHTML. This would allow the general
> > pool of documentation volunteers -- which is 5x large than WWW volunteers --
> > to maintain these areas.
> >
> > --
> > Josh Berkus
> > Aglio Database Solutions
> > San Francisco
> >
> > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> > TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
> > subscribe-nomail command to [email protected] so that your
> > message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
> >
>
> --
> Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
> [email protected] | (610) 359-1001
> + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
> + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 02:38 Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Omar Kilani <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 17:19 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:00 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 19:40 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Robert Treat <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 21:13 ` Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:24 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 59+ messages in thread
From: Josh Berkus @ 2004-11-12 21:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: [email protected]; +Cc: Robert Treat <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
Robert,
> Of course if folks feel this is something that needs to happen we could
> possibly toss some things out, but there has been some reservations
> about launching a new site at the same time as a major release.
Given the problems with the legacy site, I think a lot of us would rather see
a new, even partially implemented, site than to do 8.0 on the old site.
--Josh
--
__Aglio Database Solutions_______________
Josh Berkus Consultant
[email protected] www.agliodbs.com
Ph: 415-752-2500 Fax: 415-752-2387
2166 Hayes Suite 200 San Francisco, CA
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 02:38 Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Omar Kilani <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 17:19 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:00 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 19:40 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 21:13 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 22:24 ` Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Bruce Momjian @ 2004-11-12 22:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: [email protected]; +Cc: [email protected]; Robert Treat <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
Josh Berkus wrote:
> Robert,
>
> > Of course if folks feel this is something that needs to happen we could
> > possibly toss some things out, but there has been some reservations
> > about launching a new site at the same time as a major release. ?
>
> Given the problems with the legacy site, I think a lot of us would rather see
> a new, even partially implemented, site than to do 8.0 on the old site.
Agreed. I have two words to summarize my opinion, "dancing elephant":
http://janetskiles.com/ART/greeting/greet-ani/dancing-elephant.jpg
"I would rather see a dancing elephant up there than us do nothing."
But seriously, we haven't focused in the past on getting the www
completed and if we let 8.0 ship without doing the upgrade it will
languish for many more months.
--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
[email protected] | (610) 359-1001
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 02:38 Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Omar Kilani <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 17:19 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:00 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 22:17 ` Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:26 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 59+ messages in thread
From: Alexey Borzov @ 2004-11-12 22:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; +Cc: Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; [email protected]; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
Hi,
Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Is the new website going to be rolled out in time for the 8.0 release,
> which could be in the next few weeks?
No.
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 02:38 Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Omar Kilani <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 17:19 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:00 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:17 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 22:26 ` Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:31 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:33 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:44 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:48 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 4 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Bruce Momjian @ 2004-11-12 22:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>; +Cc: Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; [email protected]; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
Alexey Borzov wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > Is the new website going to be rolled out in time for the 8.0 release,
> > which could be in the next few weeks?
>
> No.
OK, fair enough. Now can someone explain how we can put out a release
evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex, and we can't
get a group together to update a web site?
--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
[email protected] | (610) 359-1001
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 02:38 Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Omar Kilani <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 17:19 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:00 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:17 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:26 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 22:31 ` Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:32 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:36 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Peter Eisentraut <[email protected]>
3 siblings, 2 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Josh Berkus @ 2004-11-12 22:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: [email protected]; +Cc: Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
Bruce,
> OK, fair enough. Now can someone explain how we can put out a release
> evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex, and we can't
> get a group together to update a web site?
Because a lot less people are working on the web site, and none of them are
paid to do so?
--Josh
--
--Josh
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 02:38 Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Omar Kilani <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 17:19 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:00 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:17 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:26 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:31 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 22:32 ` Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 03:02 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 59+ messages in thread
From: Bruce Momjian @ 2004-11-12 22:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: [email protected]; +Cc: [email protected]; Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
Josh Berkus wrote:
> Bruce,
>
> > OK, fair enough. ?Now can someone explain how we can put out a release
> > evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex, and we can't
> > get a group together to update a web site?
>
> Because a lot less people are working on the web site, and none of them are
> paid to do so?
Well, even if you take out the paid folks, PostgreSQL would be doing a
lot more than the www site is. Remember we had no paid guys for the
first few years.
I am suggesting that we are not properly harnessing the talent we have.
That is a big part of the success in the code portion of the project.
--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
[email protected] | (610) 359-1001
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 02:38 Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Omar Kilani <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 17:19 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:00 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:17 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:26 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:31 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:32 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-13 03:02 ` Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Marc G. Fournier @ 2004-11-13 03:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; +Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]; Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> I am suggesting that we are not properly harnessing the talent we have.
> That is a big part of the success in the code portion of the project.
I don't think so ... I think the big part of the success in the code
portion is that its more "high profile" ... to me, it was a *big* thing
when I first started submitting kernel patches for FreeBSD way back when,
because I was working on the actually *code* ...
----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: [email protected] Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 02:38 Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Omar Kilani <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 17:19 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:00 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:17 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:26 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:31 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 22:36 ` Peter Eisentraut <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 04:42 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 59+ messages in thread
From: Peter Eisentraut @ 2004-11-12 22:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: [email protected]; [email protected]; +Cc: Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
Josh Berkus wrote:
> > OK, fair enough. Now can someone explain how we can put out a
> > release evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex,
> > and we can't get a group together to update a web site?
>
> Because a lot less people are working on the web site, and none of
> them are paid to do so?
We put out regular releases long before (some) people started getting
paid for their work. If now we're only getting work done if someone's
getting paid for it, we're in trouble.
--
Peter Eisentraut
http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 02:38 Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Omar Kilani <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 17:19 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:00 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:17 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:26 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:31 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:36 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Peter Eisentraut <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-13 04:42 ` Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 05:01 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Robert Treat <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 59+ messages in thread
From: Marc G. Fournier @ 2004-11-13 04:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Eisentraut <[email protected]>; +Cc: [email protected]; [email protected]; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> Josh Berkus wrote:
>>> OK, fair enough. Now can someone explain how we can put out a
>>> release evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex,
>>> and we can't get a group together to update a web site?
>>
>> Because a lot less people are working on the web site, and none of
>> them are paid to do so?
>
> We put out regular releases long before (some) people started getting
> paid for their work. If now we're only getting work done if someone's
> getting paid for it, we're in trouble.
I agree ... IMHO, its like docs ... its not something ppl want to do,
since they have a perception that its not as "cool' as orking on the code
...
----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: [email protected] Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 02:38 Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Omar Kilani <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 17:19 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:00 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:17 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:26 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:31 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:36 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Peter Eisentraut <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 04:42 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-13 05:01 ` Robert Treat <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Robert Treat @ 2004-11-13 05:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>; +Cc: Peter Eisentraut <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected]; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
On Friday 12 November 2004 23:42, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> > Josh Berkus wrote:
> >>> OK, fair enough. Now can someone explain how we can put out a
> >>> release evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex,
> >>> and we can't get a group together to update a web site?
> >>
> >> Because a lot less people are working on the web site, and none of
> >> them are paid to do so?
> >
> > We put out regular releases long before (some) people started getting
> > paid for their work. If now we're only getting work done if someone's
> > getting paid for it, we're in trouble.
>
> I agree ... IMHO, its like docs ... its not something ppl want to do,
> since they have a perception that its not as "cool' as orking on the code
> ...
>
I don't think it is just the coolness factor. It is easier to justify needing
to hack database code to your boss/professor/manager than it is to justify
hacking on the website. Same is true for a great many third party apps like
ODBC/JDBC/PhpPgAdmin/etc... All of these things help you solve another
problem. The current website, while not award winning, is functional enough
that enough people can get work done without haveing to chip in.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 02:38 Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Omar Kilani <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 17:19 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:00 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:17 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:26 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 22:33 ` Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:36 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 23:55 ` Re: [pgsql-www] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin Sherry <[email protected]>
3 siblings, 2 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Marc G. Fournier @ 2004-11-12 22:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; +Cc: Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; [email protected]; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Alexey Borzov wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Bruce Momjian wrote:
>>> Is the new website going to be rolled out in time for the 8.0 release,
>>> which could be in the next few weeks?
>>
>> No.
>
> OK, fair enough. Now can someone explain how we can put out a release
> evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex, and we can't
> get a group together to update a web site?
Glamour? :) Its more glamous to say "I added so-n-so feature to the
server for this release" then "I helped code HTML for the web site"? :)
----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: [email protected] Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 02:38 Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Omar Kilani <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 17:19 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:00 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:17 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:26 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:33 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 22:36 ` Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Bruce Momjian @ 2004-11-12 22:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>; +Cc: Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; [email protected]; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
> > Alexey Borzov wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> >>> Is the new website going to be rolled out in time for the 8.0 release,
> >>> which could be in the next few weeks?
> >>
> >> No.
> >
> > OK, fair enough. Now can someone explain how we can put out a release
> > evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex, and we can't
> > get a group together to update a web site?
>
> Glamour? :) Its more glamous to say "I added so-n-so feature to the
> server for this release" then "I helped code HTML for the web site"? :)
OK, then how can we make the www development more glamorous? It
certainly "looks" better than a psql prompt.
Maybe my dancing elephant image would help in this area. :-)
--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
[email protected] | (610) 359-1001
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-www] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 02:38 Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Omar Kilani <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 17:19 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:00 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:17 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:26 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:33 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 23:55 ` Gavin Sherry <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Gavin Sherry @ 2004-11-12 23:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>; +Cc: Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; [email protected]; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
> > Alexey Borzov wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> >>> Is the new website going to be rolled out in time for the 8.0 release,
> >>> which could be in the next few weeks?
> >>
> >> No.
> >
> > OK, fair enough. Now can someone explain how we can put out a release
> > evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex, and we can't
> > get a group together to update a web site?
>
> Glamour? :) Its more glamous to say "I added so-n-so feature to the
> server for this release" then "I helped code HTML for the web site"? :)
I don't buy that, because lots of other projects, which have nothing to do
with web/graphics development, have great sites.
Gavin
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 02:38 Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Omar Kilani <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 17:19 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:00 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:17 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:26 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 22:44 ` Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
3 siblings, 0 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Gavin M. Roy @ 2004-11-12 22:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; +Cc: Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; [email protected]; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
Honestly? It's either the too many cooks problem, or the poor
coordination, or the lack of a clear leader/decision maker. It's hard
for people who are not already involved intimately to get involved.
It's hard to get other ideas floated without getting them shot down by
one or two people, which seems to be the overall process killer in
anything -www related. It's hard to feel like people are working in the
same direction when for language reasons or otherwise discussions turn
derogatory, rude, and down right ugly.
I keep trying to stick my nose in to things because, at least people
know who I am, and while not everyone agrees with me, I can at least try
and do what I think we are all trying to do and that is make the best
site for PostgreSQL which will impress people and be the valuable
resource the existing site already is.
There is a lot of history in the way things are done. People new to the
project and people who weren't involved in the decisions made years ago
about having sites like advocacy., developers., etc often feel out of
the loop when they try and influence change.
We have many capable designers, developers, and webmasters here. We
need to find a way to work together and realize we're all ultimately
working for the same goal. Egos need to be put aside, and work needs to
get done.
If I felt like there was a way to help get the site done that I could
truly contribute to, other than offering opinions on direction and what
not, I would be there doing it.
Gavin
Bruce Momjian wrote:
>Alexey Borzov wrote:
>
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>Bruce Momjian wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Is the new website going to be rolled out in time for the 8.0 release,
>>>which could be in the next few weeks?
>>>
>>>
>>No.
>>
>>
>
>OK, fair enough. Now can someone explain how we can put out a release
>evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex, and we can't
>get a group together to update a web site?
>
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 02:38 Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Omar Kilani <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 17:19 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:00 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:17 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:26 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 22:48 ` Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 23:34 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
3 siblings, 1 reply; 59+ messages in thread
From: Alexey Borzov @ 2004-11-12 22:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; +Cc: Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; [email protected]; pgsql-www
Hi,
Bruce Momjian wrote:
>>>Is the new website going to be rolled out in time for the 8.0 release,
>>>which could be in the next few weeks?
>>
>>No.
>
> OK, fair enough. Now can someone explain how we can put out a release
> evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex, and we can't
> get a group together to update a web site?
Your question implies that there exists some "group". Well, I can easily name
people doing the work on the server. Can you name the people doing the work on
the website?
How much attention does the Core actually pays to the website?
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 02:38 Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Omar Kilani <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 17:19 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:00 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:17 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:26 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:48 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 23:34 ` Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 08:21 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 11:20 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Jussi Mikkola <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Bruce Momjian @ 2004-11-12 23:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>; +Cc: Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; [email protected]; pgsql-www
Alexey Borzov wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> >>>Is the new website going to be rolled out in time for the 8.0 release,
> >>>which could be in the next few weeks?
> >>
> >>No.
> >
> > OK, fair enough. Now can someone explain how we can put out a release
> > evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex, and we can't
> > get a group together to update a web site?
>
> Your question implies that there exists some "group". Well, I can easily name
> people doing the work on the server. Can you name the people doing the work on
> the website?
I can name a few, but not enough, as you suggest. The point is not who
we have but how are we making it easy for more people to get involved.
> How much attention does the Core actually pays to the website?
Well, I assumed there were enough people involved that having core in
there wasn't going to help, but maybe I was wrong.
--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
[email protected] | (610) 359-1001
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 02:38 Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Omar Kilani <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 17:19 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:00 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:17 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:26 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:48 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 23:34 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-13 08:21 ` Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Alexey Borzov @ 2004-11-13 08:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; +Cc: Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; [email protected]; pgsql-www
Hi,
Bruce Momjian wrote:
>>>OK, fair enough. Now can someone explain how we can put out a release
>>>evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex, and we can't
>>>get a group together to update a web site?
>>
>>Your question implies that there exists some "group". Well, I can easily name
>>people doing the work on the server. Can you name the people doing the work on
>>the website?
>
> I can name a few, but not enough, as you suggest. The point is not who
> we have but how are we making it easy for more people to get involved.
Exactly. So can you say: what makes it easy for people to contribute to
PostgreSQL-web-server? What can we do to leverage the same to
PostgreSQL-the-website?
Please also note that the whole "coding for web is not cool" talk is a red
herring: we don't have issues with new website code (which is working) and with
its design (we even have 2 competing designs!) right now. We have issues with
hosting and with content.
Let's face it: content on current postgresql.org is shit. The information is
extremely outdated [1], one cannot find useful info in obvious places like the
current Download page [2].
People also find it easier to cut a niche in postgresql.org namespace and live
in that instead of contributing to the website. See the bittorent "site" [3] as
an extreme example: it has no info other than the links to the torrents --- does
it deserve a subdomain of its own? With an outdated version of the design as well?
Well, even you yourself have a niche where you publish PostgreSQL-related info,
and that's not even in .postgresql.org namespace.
Our glorious advocacy group does nothing to fix the situation, they even did
advocacy.postgresql.org a long time ago and quit supporting it soon after. I
don't remember any content contributions for the website from these guys.
>>How much attention does the Core actually pays to the website?
>
> Well, I assumed there were enough people involved that having core in
> there wasn't going to help, but maybe I was wrong.
There are some political decisions that need to be made. The current
"showstopper" problem is the inadequate hosting of postgresql.org project. Do
you know that current postgresql.org is on a shared box? That box is incapable
of running PHP scripts at all, it runs them slower [4] than my own server [5]
which is in fact P2-233 (look at the profiling info at the bottom of the pages).
Now, I think only the core has enough authority to address the current hosting
situation. I *can* understand why you choose to do nothing about it, though.
[1] http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/related.html
[2] http://www.postgresql.org/mirrors-ftp.html
[3] http://bt.postgresql.org/
[4] http://alexey.beta.postgresql.org/
[5] http://oc.cs.msu.su/portal/
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 02:38 Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Omar Kilani <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 17:19 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:00 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:17 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:26 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:48 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 23:34 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-13 11:20 ` Jussi Mikkola <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Jussi Mikkola @ 2004-11-13 11:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; +Cc: [email protected]; pgsql-www
Hi,
I think this is very much project management and co-operation issue.
First, I think that the web desing should be decided by those people who
do the design. And those who don't, well, I don't see much help that we
critisize the work of others. They surely know what they are doing. So I
think it would be best, that both the design groups would talk together,
and come up with a solution they see best. And one thing that
influences this very much, is, that one needs to think also about the
future, and that all those people can also contribute in the future, and
don't quit, because their work was not considered valuable. And there is
a plenty of graphical work to do, so that there is the same look and
feel in both web and other materials.
Secondly, I think we are not looking at the whole picture. We need some
kind of a schedule. That schedule should have both the website, the
translations, and the code in it. (And maybe some other things too. )We
could then for example decide, that we postpone the 8.0 release for 1
month, because that way we have the new website ready. The same thing
with translations, templates etc.
Schedule is also important for the point, that now there has been
complaints about designs, and nobody ever considers, is it better that
what we have know? When can we have it ready? We try to have it perfect,
and fail to notice, that a good solution now, would be better, than a
perfect solution sometime after the release.
This applies also to the release schedule. I have seen, that it will be
released, when it's ready, but no schedule. To decide that we have a new
design by 8.0 we also need to have a date for it. If we then later
decide to move that date, then we do, but it gives others an idea, when
they should have something ready. And it helps them make decisions. They
can decide to leave some part out just to make it ready.
Finally, I think we also need a place, where this all is available for
those who need access to it. It does not help that there is a schedule,
if people don't know it. And telling people, what is happening and when,
makes it a lot easier for them to take part in doing it. And then people
having the skills, can see where their skills are bringing most value.
Rgs,
Jussi
Bruce Momjian wrote:
>Alexey Borzov wrote:
>
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>Bruce Momjian wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>>Is the new website going to be rolled out in time for the 8.0 release,
>>>>>which could be in the next few weeks?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>No.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>OK, fair enough. Now can someone explain how we can put out a release
>>>evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very complex, and we can't
>>>get a group together to update a web site?
>>>
>>>
>>Your question implies that there exists some "group". Well, I can easily name
>>people doing the work on the server. Can you name the people doing the work on
>>the website?
>>
>>
>
>I can name a few, but not enough, as you suggest. The point is not who
>we have but how are we making it easy for more people to get involved.
>
>
>
>>How much attention does the Core actually pays to the website?
>>
>>
>
>Well, I assumed there were enough people involved that having core in
>there wasn't going to help, but maybe I was wrong.
>
>
>
--
Jussi Mikkola Partner, Project Manager
Bonware Oy gsm +358 40 830 7561
Tekniikantie 21 tel +358 9 2517 5570
02150 Espoo fax +358 9 2517 5571
Finland www.bonware.com
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 02:38 Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Omar Kilani <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-13 11:58 ` Thomas Hallgren <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Thomas Hallgren @ 2004-11-13 11:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: [email protected]
Omar Kilani wrote:
> It is a *drop-in* replacement for the current pgweb design. No
> additional work is required to retrofit the current wwwdevel design.
> It's already done!
>
And most people complain that although many people put forward
suggestions, nobody really seems to contribute! Wow!
Kudos to you Omar! If it where up to me (fortunately it isn't),
PostgreSQL would *drop this in* immediately, end of discussion!
Minor issues like not scaling perfectly, renames from "About" to
"Overview" etc, well, they can be fixed in matter of hours.
Regards,
Thomas Hallgren
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
@ 2004-11-12 09:10 Magnus Hagander <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Magnus Hagander @ 2004-11-12 09:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www; [email protected]
> Hi Again,
>
> We would like to put forward an alternate design to the
> current wwwdevel design.
>
> It is available at: http://postgresql.tinysofa.com/
>
> We believe that it is clean, professional and simple. And it
> makes the release of 8.0 actually... exciting. :)
>
> It is a *drop-in* replacement for the current pgweb design.
> No additional work is required to retrofit the current
> wwwdevel design.
> It's already done!
Not quite. My pet-peeve is back :-) I managed to get Alexey to change
About to Overview. It just seems very weird to find things like
"Interfacing postgresql with other software" under "About". Just my
opinion of course, and since things seem to drop back into About now and
then, perhaps I'm the only one with it.
> It validates. It is designed for 800x600 and up. And it looks
> pretty. :)
It indeed looks very good. But is there any reason why it can't be made
to use the full width of a browser window if it's large? It seems to
just center in the browser now...
> Of course, we're willing to help out with the content if our
> design is used. :)
Only with that design? :P I'm sure there are a lot of help needed with
content regardless of design, and since content and design aren't locked
together...
//Magnus
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
@ 2004-11-12 09:22 Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 15:07 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Robert Treat <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 59+ messages in thread
From: Dave Page @ 2004-11-12 09:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www; [email protected]
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Omar Kilani
> Sent: 12 November 2004 02:38
> To: [email protected]; [email protected]
> Subject: [pgsql-www] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
>
> Hi Again,
>
> We would like to put forward an alternate design to the
> current wwwdevel design.
>
> It is available at: http://postgresql.tinysofa.com/
>
> We believe that it is clean, professional and simple. And it
> makes the release of 8.0 actually... exciting. :)
Yes, it is a very nice design, far nicer than your last one :-)
I am concerned though - after a long time looking around and discussing
things on and off, we already all agreed on a design. I'm concerned for
2 main reasons:
1) We accepted a concept from Lukasz - I don't like the idea of throwing
away his hard work in this way.
2) What happens if xyz web design comes and offers us another great
design next week. Do we start again? Where/when do we draw the line? If
I'm honest, based on our agreement to use Lukasz' design I think that
line should be drawn already.
> It is a *drop-in* replacement for the current pgweb design.
> No additional work is required to retrofit the current
> wwwdevel design.
> It's already done!
>
> It validates. It is designed for 800x600 and up. And it looks
> pretty. :)
It does not expand with the browser though. That is a requirement of the
new site.
> By clicking "About", you can see the design for the section
> navigation and the sponsor box.
Should be Overview, but I'll put that down to your using an old cvs
snapshot!
> We've gone through a bit of the current content and fixed it
> up with proper headings and so forth. But we believe that the
> content needs to be restructured to fit within navigational
> guide lines.
>
> Some issues with the current content of the site:
Yes, content and the current split of the sites is a known issue, and is
the next phase of the project.
Regards, Dave.
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 09:22 Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 15:07 ` Robert Treat <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Robert Treat @ 2004-11-12 15:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dave Page <[email protected]>; +Cc: Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
please note I am dropping -advocacy from this discussion since I need
some focus on www work
On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 04:22, Dave Page wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected]
> > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Omar Kilani
> > Sent: 12 November 2004 02:38
> > To: [email protected]; [email protected]
> > Subject: [pgsql-www] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
> >
> > Hi Again,
> >
> > We would like to put forward an alternate design to the
> > current wwwdevel design.
> >
> > It is available at: http://postgresql.tinysofa.com/
> >
> > We believe that it is clean, professional and simple. And it
> > makes the release of 8.0 actually... exciting. :)
>
> Yes, it is a very nice design, far nicer than your last one :-)
>
> I am concerned though - after a long time looking around and discussing
> things on and off, we already all agreed on a design. I'm concerned for
> 2 main reasons:
>
> 1) We accepted a concept from Lukasz - I don't like the idea of throwing
> away his hard work in this way.
>
One problem I have with Lukasz design is that some of the subsection
really scream out for second level navigation.
In Lukasz design, we end up re-propogating the right nav bar on every
page which I think is bad because it uses a lot of screen real estate
while adding little/no substance to the secondary pages. For example, do
we really need a link to external community sites on every page?
In something like the "Overview" section, I would like to add in content
like case studies, gui tools, advantages, and other sections from
advocacy and techdocs websites, but this mean putting all of these
subsections on the main "overview" page, creating a long scrolling lists
that have to be gone through to find content. I think it is easier for
people to scroll short lists of subcategories in a left hand nav like in
the "About" section of the tinysofa design.
These underlying structural issues need to be addressed regardless of
what design we use.
> 2) What happens if xyz web design comes and offers us another great
> design next week. Do we start again? Where/when do we draw the line? If
> I'm honest, based on our agreement to use Lukasz' design I think that
> line should be drawn already.
>
If we agree that there are some underlying structural issues, then
either that needs to be addressed in the current design, or we need to
swap. I understand that we don't want to just toss Lukasz' work out the
window, but if we were developing an application and we found flaws in
some piece of it, and someone else coded up an alternative
implementation, I don't think we would discount the new idea simply on
the grounds that we already have an existing implementation. (In
fairness, the new design also has some structural issues, like fixed
width, that would also have to be addressed before we could use it)
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
@ 2004-11-12 15:38 Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 16:51 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 19:53 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Robert Treat <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Dave Page @ 2004-11-12 15:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Robert Treat <[email protected]>; +Cc: Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Robert Treat
> Sent: 12 November 2004 15:08
> To: Dave Page
> Cc: Omar Kilani; [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
>
> please note I am dropping -advocacy from this discussion
> since I need some focus on www work
Good call.
>
> One problem I have with Lukasz design is that some of the
> subsection really scream out for second level navigation.
>
> In Lukasz design, we end up re-propogating the right nav bar
> on every page which I think is bad because it uses a lot of
> screen real estate while adding little/no substance to the
> secondary pages. For example, do we really need a link to
> external community sites on every page?
>
> In something like the "Overview" section, I would like to add
> in content like case studies, gui tools, advantages, and
> other sections from advocacy and techdocs websites, but this
> mean putting all of these subsections on the main "overview"
> page, creating a long scrolling lists that have to be gone
> through to find content. I think it is easier for people to
> scroll short lists of subcategories in a left hand nav like
> in the "About" section of the tinysofa design.
>
> These underlying structural issues need to be addressed
> regardless of what design we use.
Yes, agreed.
> > 2) What happens if xyz web design comes and offers us another great
> > design next week. Do we start again? Where/when do we draw
> the line?
> > If I'm honest, based on our agreement to use Lukasz' design I think
> > that line should be drawn already.
> >
>
> If we agree that there are some underlying structural issues,
> then either that needs to be addressed in the current design,
> or we need to swap. I understand that we don't want to just
> toss Lukasz' work out the window, but if we were developing
> an application and we found flaws in some piece of it, and
> someone else coded up an alternative implementation, I don't
> think we would discount the new idea simply on the grounds
> that we already have an existing implementation.
Hmm, I don't think it's quite the same as a code issue though, as it's a
lot more subjective. I see what you mean though.
> (In
> fairness, the new design also has some structural issues,
> like fixed width, that would also have to be addressed before
> we could use it)
Also agreed.
I should add that I do actually quite like this design, at least as much
as Lukasz'.
Regards, Dave
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 15:38 Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 16:51 ` Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 17:14 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 59+ messages in thread
From: Gavin M. Roy @ 2004-11-12 16:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dave Page <[email protected]>; +Cc: Robert Treat <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
Since this design is "drop-in" ready requiring only minor changes,
perhaps we should resurrect the idea of a vote (maybe on Advocacy). Any
thoughts on that?
Gavin
Dave Page wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: [email protected]
>>[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Robert Treat
>>Sent: 12 November 2004 15:08
>>To: Dave Page
>>Cc: Omar Kilani; [email protected]
>>Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
>>
>>please note I am dropping -advocacy from this discussion
>>since I need some focus on www work
>>
>>
>
>Good call.
>
>
>
>>One problem I have with Lukasz design is that some of the
>>subsection really scream out for second level navigation.
>>
>>In Lukasz design, we end up re-propogating the right nav bar
>>on every page which I think is bad because it uses a lot of
>>screen real estate while adding little/no substance to the
>>secondary pages. For example, do we really need a link to
>>external community sites on every page?
>>
>>In something like the "Overview" section, I would like to add
>>in content like case studies, gui tools, advantages, and
>>other sections from advocacy and techdocs websites, but this
>>mean putting all of these subsections on the main "overview"
>>page, creating a long scrolling lists that have to be gone
>>through to find content. I think it is easier for people to
>>scroll short lists of subcategories in a left hand nav like
>>in the "About" section of the tinysofa design.
>>
>>These underlying structural issues need to be addressed
>>regardless of what design we use.
>>
>>
>
>Yes, agreed.
>
>
>
>>>2) What happens if xyz web design comes and offers us another great
>>>design next week. Do we start again? Where/when do we draw
>>>
>>>
>>the line?
>>
>>
>>>If I'm honest, based on our agreement to use Lukasz' design I think
>>>that line should be drawn already.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>If we agree that there are some underlying structural issues,
>>then either that needs to be addressed in the current design,
>>or we need to swap. I understand that we don't want to just
>>toss Lukasz' work out the window, but if we were developing
>>an application and we found flaws in some piece of it, and
>>someone else coded up an alternative implementation, I don't
>>think we would discount the new idea simply on the grounds
>>that we already have an existing implementation.
>>
>>
>
>Hmm, I don't think it's quite the same as a code issue though, as it's a
>lot more subjective. I see what you mean though.
>
>
>
>>(In
>>fairness, the new design also has some structural issues,
>>like fixed width, that would also have to be addressed before
>>we could use it)
>>
>>
>
>Also agreed.
>
>I should add that I do actually quite like this design, at least as much
>as Lukasz'.
>
>Regards, Dave
>
>---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
>TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
> (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to [email protected])
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 15:38 Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 16:51 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 17:14 ` Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Marc G. Fournier @ 2004-11-12 17:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>; +Cc: Dave Page <[email protected]>; Robert Treat <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Gavin M. Roy wrote:
> Since this design is "drop-in" ready requiring only minor changes, perhaps we
> should resurrect the idea of a vote (maybe on Advocacy). Any thoughts on
> that?
Once change to the new design has to be made before it can be drop'd in,
and the banner has to be added to the right menu like it is on the new
design ...
>
> Gavin
>
> Dave Page wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [email protected]
>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Robert Treat
>>> Sent: 12 November 2004 15:08
>>> To: Dave Page
>>> Cc: Omar Kilani; [email protected]
>>> Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
>>>
>>> please note I am dropping -advocacy from this discussion since I need some
>>> focus on www work
>>>
>>
>> Good call.
>>
>>
>>> One problem I have with Lukasz design is that some of the subsection
>>> really scream out for second level navigation.
>>> In Lukasz design, we end up re-propogating the right nav bar on every page
>>> which I think is bad because it uses a lot of screen real estate while
>>> adding little/no substance to the secondary pages. For example, do we
>>> really need a link to external community sites on every page?
>>> In something like the "Overview" section, I would like to add in content
>>> like case studies, gui tools, advantages, and other sections from advocacy
>>> and techdocs websites, but this mean putting all of these subsections on
>>> the main "overview" page, creating a long scrolling lists that have to be
>>> gone through to find content. I think it is easier for people to scroll
>>> short lists of subcategories in a left hand nav like in the "About"
>>> section of the tinysofa design.
>>> These underlying structural issues need to be addressed regardless of what
>>> design we use.
>>
>> Yes, agreed.
>>
>>
>>>> 2) What happens if xyz web design comes and offers us another great
>>>> design next week. Do we start again? Where/when do we draw
>>> the line?
>>>> If I'm honest, based on our agreement to use Lukasz' design I think that
>>>> line should be drawn already.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> If we agree that there are some underlying structural issues, then either
>>> that needs to be addressed in the current design, or we need to swap. I
>>> understand that we don't want to just toss Lukasz' work out the window,
>>> but if we were developing an application and we found flaws in some piece
>>> of it, and someone else coded up an alternative implementation, I don't
>>> think we would discount the new idea simply on the grounds that we already
>>> have an existing implementation.
>>
>> Hmm, I don't think it's quite the same as a code issue though, as it's a
>> lot more subjective. I see what you mean though.
>>
>>
>>> (In fairness, the new design also has some structural issues, like fixed
>>> width, that would also have to be addressed before we could use it)
>>
>> Also agreed.
>> I should add that I do actually quite like this design, at least as much
>> as Lukasz'.
>> Regards, Dave
>>
>> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
>> TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
>> (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to [email protected])
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
>
> http://archives.postgresql.org
>
----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: [email protected] Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 15:38 Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 19:53 ` Robert Treat <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Robert Treat @ 2004-11-12 19:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dave Page <[email protected]>; +Cc: Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 10:38, Dave Page wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected]
> > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Robert Treat
> > Sent: 12 November 2004 15:08
> > To: Dave Page
> > Cc: Omar Kilani; [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
> >
> > please note I am dropping -advocacy from this discussion
> > since I need some focus on www work
>
> Good call.
>
> >
> > One problem I have with Lukasz design is that some of the
> > subsection really scream out for second level navigation.
> >
<snip>
> >
> > These underlying structural issues need to be addressed
> > regardless of what design we use.
>
> Yes, agreed.
>
here is a more concrete example of a structural issue. One of the items
on the TODO list is getting some initial integration of
developer.postgresql.org into the main site. I came up with the
following structure that I think would work fairly well for integrating
the two sites:
Developer/
Roadmap/
TODO
unapplied patches
Coding/
bios
cvs retrieve
dev lists
translating
info/
flowchart
db internals
implementation
(howto build for linux/win32)
(db projects ie. odbc,jdbc,dbd,etc...)
(howto on writing docs)
Testing/
beta
dev docs
dev docs 5 min
(autobuildproject)
(nightly builds)
(report a bug)
Tools/
cvs - web
cvs interfaces - web
(lxr)
FAQ/
faq
Basically we start with a main nav "developer" link, which takes us into
the developer content. This content cant be broken down into a number of
subcategories (RoadMap, Coding, Testing, Tools, FAQ), which would have
further content underneath them. I've added some items in () to show
where future content might grow into.
In the lukasz design, I would basically be forced to have the main
developer page be a list of links that scroll down the page. In the
tinysofa design, we could put the subcatagories into a right hand nav
bar with content or further links into the main section, and it would
not be cramped in like we are with the main nav bar.
Now, we could probably accomplish this with the luckasz design, though
all we have seen are repeated right hand nav bar style pages. The
tinysofa design has the advantage of already seeing how these types of
subpages would look.
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
@ 2004-11-12 17:01 Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:37 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 59+ messages in thread
From: Dave Page @ 2004-11-12 17:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>; +Cc: Robert Treat <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gavin M. Roy [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: 12 November 2004 16:51
> To: Dave Page
> Cc: Robert Treat; Omar Kilani; [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
>
> Since this design is "drop-in" ready requiring only minor
> changes, perhaps we should resurrect the idea of a vote
Yes, sounds fine to me.
> (maybe on Advocacy). Any thoughts on that?
Not on -advocacy. That list does not, and has never contributed directly
to the web stuff. That's what we have -www for.
Regards, Dave
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 17:01 Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 18:37 ` Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 19:17 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 19:37 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Robert Treat <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Gavin M. Roy @ 2004-11-12 18:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dave Page <[email protected]>; +Cc: Robert Treat <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
>Not on -advocacy. That list does not, and has never contributed directly to the web stuff. That's what we have -www for.
>
>Regards, Dave
>
The idea here, and I know that people don't agree, but websites are the public marketing front for projects like this. Advocacy has as much to do with that as the people on www that make it happen. While documentation and such are important, one can argue that those are marketing tools, since users would be less apt to use PgSQL if the website didn't have the info. The website is one of the things that new users evaluate, even subconsciously, before making a decision. The more professional we look in web presence, the more comfortable users will be with PgSQL at an Enterprise level.
Ultimately I also think we need to take the vote out of the hands of the implementors and into the hands of a potential test market as they will be more representative of user impression. I would even go as far as to suggest the radical idea of offering the vote to pgsql-general and letting the active community at large decide.
</marketing_hat>
Gavin
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 17:01 Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:37 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 19:17 ` Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Joshua D. Drake @ 2004-11-12 19:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>; +Cc: Dave Page <[email protected]>; Robert Treat <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
>>
> The idea here, and I know that people don't agree, but websites are the
> public marketing front for projects like this. Advocacy has as much to
> do with that as the people on www that make it happen. While
> documentation and such are important, one can argue that those are
> marketing tools, since users would be less apt to use PgSQL if the
> website didn't have the info. The website is one of the things that new
> users evaluate, even subconsciously, before making a decision. The more
> professional we look in web presence, the more comfortable users will be
> with PgSQL at an Enterprise level.
>
> Ultimately I also think we need to take the vote out of the hands of the
> implementors and into the hands of a potential test market as they will
> be more representative of user impression. I would even go as far as to
> suggest the radical idea of offering the vote to pgsql-general and
> letting the active community at large decide.
> </marketing_hat>
This is absolutely correct.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
>
> Gavin
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
> (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to [email protected])
--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of PostgreSQL Replication, and plPHP.
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
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^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 17:01 Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:37 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 19:37 ` Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 19:47 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 59+ messages in thread
From: Robert Treat @ 2004-11-12 19:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>; +Cc: Dave Page <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 13:37, Gavin M. Roy wrote:
>
> >Not on -advocacy. That list does not, and has never contributed
directly to the web stuff. That's what we have -www for.
> >
> >Regards, Dave
> >
> The idea here, and I know that people don't agree, but websites are
> the public marketing front for projects like this. Advocacy has as
> much to do with that as the people on www that make it happen. While
> documentation and such are important, one can argue that those are
> marketing tools, since users would be less apt to use PgSQL if the
> website didn't have the info. The website is one of the things that
> new users evaluate, even subconsciously, before making a decision.
> The more professional we look in web presence, the more comfortable
> users will be with PgSQL at an Enterprise level.
>
I don't necessarily disagree with you on these items, but the same
argument could be said for including ODBC/JDBC Drivers, PgAdmin Gui
Tool, or Slony, into the main postgresql product. Database customers
generally "expect" those things to be include in their software package,
yet no one seems to be up in arms over -core's decision to toss those
things out of the main code base.
Besides, of the folks heavily involved in advocacy (of which I happen to
be one), the majority of those folks follow this list, so there concerns
are not being ignored.
> Ultimately I also think we need to take the vote out of the hands of
> the implementors and into the hands of a potential test market as they
> will be more representative of user impression. I would even go as
> far as to suggest the radical idea of offering the vote to
> pgsql-general and letting the active community at large decide.
> </marketing_hat>
>
Sorry, but the site has goals of things it needs to accomplish and that
goes beyond "looking cool". I've worked in usability and information
architecture and know the things that need to be accomplished with an
organizations main website and if you leave it up to the general public
your looking for trouble.
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 17:01 Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:37 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 19:37 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Robert Treat <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 19:47 ` Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 20:10 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 59+ messages in thread
From: Gavin M. Roy @ 2004-11-12 19:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Robert Treat <[email protected]>; +Cc: Dave Page <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
>Sorry, but the site has goals of things it needs to accomplish and that
>goes beyond "looking cool". I've worked in usability and information
>architecture and know the things that need to be accomplished with an
>organizations main website and if you leave it up to the general public
>your looking for trouble.
>
>
>Robert Treat
>
>
Appearance and usability are both important factors. Are you saying
that people outside of -www are not capable of judging both?
Gavin
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 17:01 Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:37 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 19:37 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 19:47 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 20:10 ` Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 20:17 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 59+ messages in thread
From: Marc G. Fournier @ 2004-11-12 20:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>; +Cc: Robert Treat <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Gavin M. Roy wrote:
>
>> Sorry, but the site has goals of things it needs to accomplish and that
>> goes beyond "looking cool". I've worked in usability and information
>> architecture and know the things that need to be accomplished with an
>> organizations main website and if you leave it up to the general public
>> your looking for trouble.
>>
>> Robert Treat
>>
> Appearance and usability are both important factors. Are you saying that
> people outside of -www are not capable of judging both?
The wider the audience, the harder it becomes to come to a consensus ...
those that are interested in the web site developments have/should join
the -www list, just like you did, and put in their 2 cents ...
----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: [email protected] Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 17:01 Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:37 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 19:37 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 19:47 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 20:10 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 20:17 ` Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 20:36 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 20:39 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Oleg Bartunov <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 21:16 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 3 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Gavin M. Roy @ 2004-11-12 20:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>; +Cc: Robert Treat <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
I'm not talking about opening it to input and design suggestions, i'm
talking about a vote:
A if you like the design at url1
B if you like the design at url2
Not open ended, not allowing for people to say "yeah but do this or do that"
Gavin
Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Gavin M. Roy wrote:
>
>>
>>> Sorry, but the site has goals of things it needs to accomplish and that
>>> goes beyond "looking cool". I've worked in usability and information
>>> architecture and know the things that need to be accomplished with an
>>> organizations main website and if you leave it up to the general public
>>> your looking for trouble.
>>> Robert Treat
>>>
>> Appearance and usability are both important factors. Are you saying
>> that people outside of -www are not capable of judging both?
>
>
> The wider the audience, the harder it becomes to come to a consensus
> ... those that are interested in the web site developments have/should
> join the -www list, just like you did, and put in their 2 cents ...
>
> ----
> Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services
> (http://www.hub.org)
> Email: [email protected] Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ:
> 7615664
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if
> your
> joining column's datatypes do not match
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 17:01 Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:37 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 19:37 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 19:47 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 20:10 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 20:17 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 20:36 ` Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2 siblings, 0 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Robert Treat @ 2004-11-12 20:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>; +Cc: Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
Actually all of this call for a vote seems a little premature IMHO. We
have problems with both designs that need to be addressed. Let's see
what shakes out from that discussion before we put it up for a vote,
after all we just might form a consensus anyway.
Robert Treat
On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 15:17, Gavin M. Roy wrote:
> I'm not talking about opening it to input and design suggestions, i'm
> talking about a vote:
>
> A if you like the design at url1
> B if you like the design at url2
>
> Not open ended, not allowing for people to say "yeah but do this or do that"
>
> Gavin
>
> Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Gavin M. Roy wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>> Sorry, but the site has goals of things it needs to accomplish and that
> >>> goes beyond "looking cool". I've worked in usability and information
> >>> architecture and know the things that need to be accomplished with an
> >>> organizations main website and if you leave it up to the general public
> >>> your looking for trouble.
> >>> Robert Treat
> >>>
> >> Appearance and usability are both important factors. Are you saying
> >> that people outside of -www are not capable of judging both?
> >
> >
> > The wider the audience, the harder it becomes to come to a consensus
> > ... those that are interested in the web site developments have/should
> > join the -www list, just like you did, and put in their 2 cents ...
> >
> > ----
> > Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services
> > (http://www.hub.org)
> > Email: [email protected] Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ:
> > 7615664
> >
> > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> > TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if
> > your
> > joining column's datatypes do not match
>
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 17:01 Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:37 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 19:37 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 19:47 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 20:10 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 20:17 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 20:39 ` Oleg Bartunov <[email protected]>
2 siblings, 0 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Oleg Bartunov @ 2004-11-12 20:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>; +Cc: Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>; Robert Treat <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
Hi there,
there will be many waves of 'new/alternative' design, so I propose
voluntary approach but with requirement of presence of "mandatory" part.
"mandatory" part should be available via http/rsync/ftp for mirroring.
I'd be happy to mirror on www.pgsql.ru, for example, pg announcements,
catalog of links to pg resources, documentations.
Having such mandatory parts/pieces of information it's easy to
to have design 1,2,3 as Gavin proposed. cookies could store preferences,
so no different url required.
Oleg
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Gavin M. Roy wrote:
> I'm not talking about opening it to input and design suggestions, i'm talking
> about a vote:
>
> A if you like the design at url1
> B if you like the design at url2
>
> Not open ended, not allowing for people to say "yeah but do this or do that"
>
> Gavin
>
> Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Gavin M. Roy wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> Sorry, but the site has goals of things it needs to accomplish and that
>>>> goes beyond "looking cool". I've worked in usability and information
>>>> architecture and know the things that need to be accomplished with an
>>>> organizations main website and if you leave it up to the general public
>>>> your looking for trouble.
>>>> Robert Treat
>>>>
>>> Appearance and usability are both important factors. Are you saying that
>>> people outside of -www are not capable of judging both?
>>
>>
>> The wider the audience, the harder it becomes to come to a consensus ...
>> those that are interested in the web site developments have/should join the
>> -www list, just like you did, and put in their 2 cents ...
>>
>> ----
>> Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
>> Email: [email protected] Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
>>
>> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
>> TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
>> joining column's datatypes do not match
>
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
>
Regards,
Oleg
_____________________________________________________________
Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
Internet: [email protected], http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 17:01 Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:37 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 19:37 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 19:47 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 20:10 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 20:17 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 21:16 ` Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2 siblings, 0 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Josh Berkus @ 2004-11-12 21:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>; +Cc: Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>; Robert Treat <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
Folks,
> A if you like the design at url1
> B if you like the design at url2
Personally, I have one and only one criterion: which one will get done first?
--
--Josh
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
@ 2004-11-12 21:18 Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 21:51 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 59+ messages in thread
From: Dave Page @ 2004-11-12 21:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>; +Cc: Robert Treat <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gavin M. Roy [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: 12 November 2004 18:38
> To: Dave Page
> Cc: Robert Treat; Omar Kilani; [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
>
>
> >Not on -advocacy. That list does not, and has never
> contributed directly to the web stuff. That's what we have -www for.
> >
> >Regards, Dave
> >
> The idea here, and I know that people don't agree, but
> websites are the public marketing front for projects like
> this. Advocacy has as much to do with that as the people on
> www that make it happen.
Yes, that's how it should happen. But seeing as -advocacy decided to go
and do their own website, and all we ever seem to get on this list from
there is complaints and criticisms from people who clearly have't taken
the time to check their facts before posting, I personally do not think
they should be included in this. Now that is not a general criticism of
the members of that list - many are *very* constructive community
members. However, every time -advocacy get involved, we end up going
round months old arguments again and again and get nowhere fast.
Regards, Dave.
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 21:18 Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 21:51 ` Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Joshua D. Drake @ 2004-11-12 21:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dave Page <[email protected]>; +Cc: Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>; Robert Treat <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
> Yes, that's how it should happen. But seeing as -advocacy decided to go
> and do their own website, and all we ever seem to get on this list from
> there is complaints and criticisms from people who clearly have't taken
> the time to check their facts before posting, I personally do not think
> they should be included in this. Now that is not a general criticism of
> the members of that list - many are *very* constructive community
> members. However, every time -advocacy get involved, we end up going
> round months old arguments again and again and get nowhere fast.
All due respect, but the whole www site is going nowhere fast in
general. I am on www, and I have seen no updates whatsoever about where
we are on the website, what tasks need to be completed, who is doing
them, estimated timelines...
or -- even a reminder to people of where to go to see these things if
they exist.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
>
> Regards, Dave.
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
>
> http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of PostgreSQL Replication, and plPHP.
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - [email protected] - http://www.commandprompt.com
Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL
Attachments:
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download | inline:
begin:vcard
fn:Joshua D. Drake
n:Drake;Joshua D.
org:Command Prompt, Inc.
adr:;;PO Box 215;Cascade Locks;Oregon;97014;USA
email;internet:[email protected]
title:Consultant
tel;work:503-667-4564
tel;fax:503-210-0334
note:Command Prompt, Inc. is the largest and oldest US based commercial PostgreSQL support provider. We provide the only commercially viable integrated PostgreSQL replication solution, but also custom programming, and support. We authored the book Practical PostgreSQL, the procedural language plPHP, and adding trigger capability to plPerl.
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url:http://www.commandprompt.com/
version:2.1
end:vcard
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
@ 2004-11-12 22:18 Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:32 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 59+ messages in thread
From: Dave Page @ 2004-11-12 22:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]>; +Cc: Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>; Robert Treat <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joshua D. Drake [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: 12 November 2004 21:52
> To: Dave Page
> Cc: Gavin M. Roy; Robert Treat; Omar Kilani; [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
>
>
>
> All due respect, but the whole www site is going nowhere fast
> in general. I am on www, and I have seen no updates
> whatsoever about where we are on the website, what tasks need
> to be completed, who is doing them, estimated timelines...
I admit there hasn't been much done the last couple of weeks, but in my
case that's because I've been polishing off and handing in a
dissertation. I'm sure you will have seen the various commit messages
from before then though? There have been commits from myself, Alexey and
Robert, as well as some patches from Gavin Sherry.
>
> or -- even a reminder to people of where to go to see these
> things if they exist.
Well we don't post periodic reminders on other lists either, but here
you go:
Todo list: http://wwwdevel.postgresql.org/todo
Web CVS: http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/pgweb/cvs/cvs.php/portal
Commiter list: http://gborg.postgresql.org/pipermail/pgweb-commits/
Regards, Dave.
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 22:18 Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 22:32 ` Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 00:08 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 59+ messages in thread
From: Marc G. Fournier @ 2004-11-12 22:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dave Page <[email protected]>; +Cc: Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]>; Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>; Robert Treat <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Dave Page wrote:
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Joshua D. Drake [mailto:[email protected]]
>> Sent: 12 November 2004 21:52
>> To: Dave Page
>> Cc: Gavin M. Roy; Robert Treat; Omar Kilani; [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
>>
>>
>>
>> All due respect, but the whole www site is going nowhere fast
>> in general. I am on www, and I have seen no updates
>> whatsoever about where we are on the website, what tasks need
>> to be completed, who is doing them, estimated timelines...
>
> I admit there hasn't been much done the last couple of weeks, but in my
> case that's because I've been polishing off and handing in a
> dissertation. I'm sure you will have seen the various commit messages
> from before then though? There have been commits from myself, Alexey and
> Robert, as well as some patches from Gavin Sherry.
Maybe the commit messages should be directed to pgsql-www?
----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: [email protected] Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 22:18 Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:32 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-13 00:08 ` Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 03:29 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 59+ messages in thread
From: Josh Berkus @ 2004-11-13 00:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>; +Cc: Dave Page <[email protected]>; Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]>; Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>; Robert Treat <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
Marc,
> Maybe the commit messages should be directed to pgsql-www?
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ....................
--
--Josh
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 22:18 Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:32 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 00:08 ` Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-13 03:29 ` Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Marc G. Fournier @ 2004-11-13 03:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; +Cc: pgsql-www
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Marc,
>
>> Maybe the commit messages should be directed to pgsql-www?
>
> Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ....................
But, it help curtail the "nobody is doing anything" arguments ... *evil
grin*
----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: [email protected] Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
@ 2004-11-12 22:41 Dave Page <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Dave Page @ 2004-11-12 22:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>; +Cc: Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; [email protected]; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bruce Momjian
> Sent: 12 November 2004 22:26
> To: Alexey Borzov
> Cc: Josh Berkus; [email protected]; Omar Kilani;
> [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] [pgsql-www] Alternate
> PostgreSQL.org Design
>
> Alexey Borzov wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > > Is the new website going to be rolled out in time for the 8.0
> > > release, which could be in the next few weeks?
> >
> > No.
>
> OK, fair enough. Now can someone explain how we can put out
> a release evrery 8-12 months with 200-300 changes, some very
> complex, and we can't get a group together to update a web site?
Because despite lots of noise, virtually no-one ever actually helps out.
Marc, Robert, Devrim and I do what we can on the main sites, but as you
know, we all have fingers in many other pies. People like John Hansen,
Chris Ryan and Andrew Dunstan have kindly taken on projects like search,
gborg and pgfoundry, but these sites are obviously more specialised. The
only person working totally on the portal is Alexey, and the only
material contributions from others have been designs (from Gavin, Lukasz
and Tinysofa), and a couple of patches from Gavin S.
Apologies for any other regulars I might have forgotten, but you get my
point!
Regards Dave.
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
@ 2004-11-12 22:47 Dave Page <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Dave Page @ 2004-11-12 22:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; [email protected]; +Cc: [email protected]; Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bruce Momjian
> Sent: 12 November 2004 22:33
> To: [email protected]
> Cc: [email protected]; Alexey Borzov; Omar
> Kilani; [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] [pgsql-www] Alternate
> PostgreSQL.org Design
>
>
> Well, even if you take out the paid folks, PostgreSQL would
> be doing a lot more than the www site is. Remember we had no
> paid guys for the first few years.
People have far more motivation to work on the server - that want to use
it's features. Most of us don't actually need to use the website.
> I am suggesting that we are not properly harnessing the
> talent we have.
> That is a big part of the success in the code portion of the project.
<mutters>don't mention odbc, don't mention odbc, don't mention
odbc</mutters>
Seriously though, yes, I agree. We have more than enough talent here. As
Marc says, it just isn't glamourous work, or work that is liekly to
directly benefit any volunteers, other than perhaps the designers who
put their names at the bottom.
Regards, Dave.
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
@ 2004-11-12 22:48 Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:58 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 59+ messages in thread
From: Dave Page @ 2004-11-12 22:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>; +Cc: Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; [email protected]; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bruce Momjian
> Sent: 12 November 2004 22:36
> To: Marc G. Fournier
> Cc: Alexey Borzov; Josh Berkus;
> [email protected]; Omar Kilani; [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] [pgsql-www] Alternate
> PostgreSQL.org Design
>
> Maybe my dancing elephant image would help in this area. :-)
Nah, the colour scheme is all wrong. Can you get a blue one?
:-)
Regards, Dave
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 22:48 Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 22:58 ` Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 23:05 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Oleg Bartunov <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 59+ messages in thread
From: Bruce Momjian @ 2004-11-12 22:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dave Page <[email protected]>; +Cc: Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>; Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; [email protected]; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
Dave Page wrote:
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected]
> > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bruce Momjian
> > Sent: 12 November 2004 22:36
> > To: Marc G. Fournier
> > Cc: Alexey Borzov; Josh Berkus;
> > [email protected]; Omar Kilani; [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] [pgsql-www] Alternate
> > PostgreSQL.org Design
> >
> > Maybe my dancing elephant image would help in this area. :-)
>
> Nah, the colour scheme is all wrong. Can you get a blue one?
OK, fixed:
http://candle.pha.pa.us/tmp/dancing-elephant.jpg
Now, who said web development wasn't fun?
--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
[email protected] | (610) 359-1001
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 22:48 Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:58 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 23:05 ` Oleg Bartunov <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Oleg Bartunov @ 2004-11-12 23:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; +Cc: Dave Page <[email protected]>; Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>; Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; [email protected]; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Dave Page wrote:
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [email protected]
>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bruce Momjian
>>> Sent: 12 November 2004 22:36
>>> To: Marc G. Fournier
>>> Cc: Alexey Borzov; Josh Berkus;
>>> [email protected]; Omar Kilani; [email protected]
>>> Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] [pgsql-www] Alternate
>>> PostgreSQL.org Design
>>>
>>> Maybe my dancing elephant image would help in this area. :-)
>>
>> Nah, the colour scheme is all wrong. Can you get a blue one?
>
> OK, fixed:
>
> http://candle.pha.pa.us/tmp/dancing-elephant.jpg
>
> Now, who said web development wasn't fun?
>
Here is another from our pgastro project:
http://www.pgastro.org/img/pgsphere.png
>
Regards,
Oleg
_____________________________________________________________
Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
Internet: [email protected], http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
@ 2004-11-12 23:02 Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 23:56 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 59+ messages in thread
From: Dave Page @ 2004-11-12 23:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; +Cc: Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; [email protected]; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gavin M. Roy
> Sent: 12 November 2004 22:45
> To: Bruce Momjian
> Cc: Alexey Borzov; Josh Berkus;
> [email protected]; Omar Kilani; [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] [pgsql-www] Alternate
> PostgreSQL.org Design
>
>
> If I felt like there was a way to help get the site done that
> I could truly contribute to, other than offering opinions on
> direction and what not, I would be there doing it.
Have you checked the todo list? Those are the things we need to do in
the short term if you can contribute.
I realise I'm probably one of the people you accuse of being rude and
shooting down ideas (and if I have been rude to anyone, please excuse me
- it was most certainly unintentional), but please see it from my point
of view. Periodically we get a barrage of message criticising the work
we put in from people who haven't taken the time to review the archives
of the list, or look at the cvs/todo/commit messages etc. It's extremely
disheartening to those of us that do give *many* hours of our time each
week, especially when 95% of those people complaining won't actually
help out.
As one of the oldest -www members, I have tried to lead as much as I
can, and each time I try to focus people on getting the job done, I get
flamed for not listening to different ideas about tasks we have already
discussed or even done. So, here's the current plan again:
1) Finish the new website, specifically the items on the todo list.
2) Make the new website live.
3a) Merge in the advocacy and developer websites.
3b) Review/update/sanitise all content.
In addition to which, I've have suggested to a number of volunteers that
a good standalone project would be a good replacement CMS for techdocs.
Regards, Dave
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 23:02 Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-12 23:56 ` Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 05:44 ` Re: [PASCAL-advocacy] [PASCAL-www] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 07:55 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 2 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Gavin M. Roy @ 2004-11-12 23:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dave Page <[email protected]>; +Cc: Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; [email protected]; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
>Have you checked the todo list? Those are the things we need to do in
>the short term if you can contribute.
>
>
Nope, I'm sure it's my fault, but I don't know where that is, and if
it's in cvs, how to get at it. Alexey posted a tarball of his source,
but after my last contribution via email to the current Lucaz design
went completely unnoticed and didnt even receive a no-thanks, we'd
rather keep it the way it is, I'm a bit out of the loop on what it takes
to actually get something done. Add to that lack of documention to
coding standards, and Alexey's clear stance on such things, and not
wanted to step on Alexey's toes to get it anything done.... well here I am.
>I realise I'm probably one of the people you accuse of being rude and
>shooting down ideas (and if I have been rude to anyone, please excuse me
>
>
To be honest, I can only come up with a few people off hand and you
werent one of them Dave ;). That's not to say.. well never mind.
>- it was most certainly unintentional), but please see it from my point
>of view. Periodically we get a barrage of message criticising the work
>we put in from people who haven't taken the time to review the archives
>of the list, or look at the cvs/todo/commit messages etc. It's extremely
>disheartening to those of us that do give *many* hours of our time each
>week, especially when 95% of those people complaining won't actually
>help out.
>
>
I understand your point here, and don't disagree. I can only state that
in the past I've seen many offers to help, and if it's not in line with
"Finish Alexey's code" it's shot down *right away*. There are many ways
for people to do things, and for example, when the tinysofa ppl came up
with a new design, the "official" response was basicly for them to get
lost. Too little too late. Unless something is overly complex and
wrong with Alexey's code, applying a different theme should be fairly
easy and could take less than a day.
>As one of the oldest -www members, I have tried to lead as much as I
>can, and each time I try to focus people on getting the job done, I get
>flamed for not listening to different ideas about tasks we have already
>discussed or even done.
>
I've been on here a while, and I notice the flame wars. I try not to
stir them up. Without a clear person in charge, it's collective group
think, and in collective group think people will always disagree and
stuff won't get done en masse.
>So, here's the current plan again:
>
>1) Finish the new website, specifically the items on the todo list.
>2) Make the new website live.
>3a) Merge in the advocacy and developer websites.
>3b) Review/update/sanitise all content.
>
>
Point me to the todo list and put up with my questions about how to get
stuff put in approved, working, etc and hopefully I can contribute.
Ultimately I would prefer to see the tinysofa design instead of Lucaz's,
sorry Lucaz...
>In addition to which, I've have suggested to a number of volunteers that
>a good standalone project would be a good replacement CMS for techdocs.
>
>
That would be nice, I know of one that works really well ;-)
Gavin
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [PASCAL-advocacy] [PASCAL-www] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 23:02 Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 23:56 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-13 05:44 ` Robert Treat <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Robert Treat @ 2004-11-13 05:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>; +Cc: Dave Page <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; [email protected]; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
On Friday 12 November 2004 18:56, Gavin M. Roy wrote:
> >Have you checked the todo list? Those are the things we need to do in
> >the short term if you can contribute.
>
> Nope, I'm sure it's my fault, but I don't know where that is, and if
> it's in cvs, how to get at it.
Gavin, you are on the -www list aren't you? It's been posted there many times.
Just in case not, it's at http://wwwdevel.postgresql.org/todo
> Alexey posted a tarball of his source,
> but after my last contribution via email to the current Lucaz design
> went completely unnoticed and didnt even receive a no-thanks, we'd
> rather keep it the way it is, I'm a bit out of the loop on what it takes
> to actually get something done.
Huh? IIRC the last patch I saw you send in was applied by Dave a couple days
later?
> Add to that lack of documention to
> coding standards, and Alexey's clear stance on such things, and not
> wanted to step on Alexey's toes to get it anything done.... well here I am.
>
Heh... well, we do have a couple of minor docs in the CVS about coding
standards... um... I'll just ignore the part about Alexey.
> >I realise I'm probably one of the people you accuse of being rude and
> >shooting down ideas (and if I have been rude to anyone, please excuse me
>
> To be honest, I can only come up with a few people off hand and you
> werent one of them Dave ;). That's not to say.. well never mind.
>
> >- it was most certainly unintentional), but please see it from my point
> >of view. Periodically we get a barrage of message criticising the work
> >we put in from people who haven't taken the time to review the archives
> >of the list, or look at the cvs/todo/commit messages etc. It's extremely
> >disheartening to those of us that do give *many* hours of our time each
> >week, especially when 95% of those people complaining won't actually
> >help out.
>
> I understand your point here, and don't disagree. I can only state that
> in the past I've seen many offers to help, and if it's not in line with
> "Finish Alexey's code" it's shot down *right away*.
This is generally true only if it is a rehash of something we have been over
dozens of times. Kind of like when people pop-up on -hackers and say "I'm
ready to start coding up a threaded back-end, which files should I be looking
at" Otherwise my experience has been more of people asking what they can
do to help and us responding with "look at the todo/look at the portal code"
and then people either disappear or people point out they were hoping to
implement some CMS or other radical whizbang code and then they disappear
after we we don't get enthusiastic about it.
> There are many ways
> for people to do things, and for example, when the tinysofa ppl came up
> with a new design, the "official" response was basicly for them to get
> lost. Too little too late. Unless something is overly complex and
> wrong with Alexey's code, applying a different theme should be fairly
> easy and could take less than a day.
>
You have to realize that this is at least the 5th design we have seen for the
new site, none of which get us any closer to getting the new site launched if
for no other reason that each of these designs seems to spur another round of
website flaming. Also, for the record, I ask the tinysofa people if they
would be interested in submitting some updated banners and/or buttons for our
propaganda page and got no response. That's another example of us trying to
find ways for people to get involved and people not bothering when it's not
on their personal agenda.
> >As one of the oldest -www members, I have tried to lead as much as I
> >can, and each time I try to focus people on getting the job done, I get
> >flamed for not listening to different ideas about tasks we have already
> >discussed or even done.
>
> I've been on here a while, and I notice the flame wars. I try not to
> stir them up. Without a clear person in charge, it's collective group
> think, and in collective group think people will always disagree and
> stuff won't get done en masse.
>
We manage to develop the database without a single person in charge, do we
really have to one person in charge of www? I don't think so. Dave and I
are on the same page, and I think most of the regulars
(devrim/marc/alexey/john/chris) are as well.
> >So, here's the current plan again:
> >
> >1) Finish the new website, specifically the items on the todo list.
> >2) Make the new website live.
> >3a) Merge in the advocacy and developer websites.
> >3b) Review/update/sanitise all content.
>
And actually as I look at this list, I think we could launch the site
relatively soon. There are things that look like garbage, but they are no
worse than what we currently have. I'll take a swing at updating the todo
list tonight.
--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 23:02 Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 23:56 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-13 07:55 ` Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 08:04 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin Sherry <[email protected]>
1 sibling, 1 reply; 59+ messages in thread
From: Alexey Borzov @ 2004-11-13 07:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>; +Cc: Dave Page <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
Hi,
Gavin M. Roy wrote:
>> Have you checked the todo list? Those are the things we need to do in
>> the short term if you can contribute.
>>
> Nope, I'm sure it's my fault, but I don't know where that is, and if
> it's in cvs, how to get at it. Alexey posted a tarball of his source,
> but after my last contribution via email to the current Lucaz design
> went completely unnoticed and didnt even receive a no-thanks, we'd
> rather keep it the way it is, I'm a bit out of the loop on what it takes
> to actually get something done.
The project is on gborg: http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/pgweb/projdisplay.php
What contribution exactly are you talking about? I only remember receiving XHTML
patches from you recently. These were all applied.
> Add to that lack of documention to
> coding standards, and Alexey's clear stance on such things, and not
> wanted to step on Alexey's toes to get it anything done.... well here I am.
What documentation exactly do you want? There is a README on setting up a copy
of the website in CVS / tarball. I can write more docs certainly, but bear in
mind that I am not a native English speaker so they may be unclear --- please
ask in such case.
> I understand your point here, and don't disagree. I can only state that
> in the past I've seen many offers to help, and if it's not in line with
> "Finish Alexey's code" it's shot down *right away*.
That's not "Alexey's" code: it was started by Andreas ~1 year ago. While the
current version is rewritten quite a bit, still I was continuing the work of
someone else. What's so hard in doing the same?
> There are many ways
> for people to do things, and for example, when the tinysofa ppl came up
> with a new design, the "official" response was basicly for them to get
> lost. Too little too late. Unless something is overly complex and
> wrong with Alexey's code, applying a different theme should be fairly
> easy and could take less than a day.
Yes, there is nothing difficult in applying the new design and yes, it will take
less than a day. But I'd like to repeat what I said in private email to Omar: I
am not interested in doing this myself. If someone else will do this --- fine
with me. But I do not want to waste my time, 'cause I am not sure that a new
person with a better design will not surface in a week's time.
> Point me to the todo list and put up with my questions about how to get
> stuff put in approved, working, etc and hopefully I can contribute.
> Ultimately I would prefer to see the tinysofa design instead of Lucaz's,
> sorry Lucaz...
http://wwwdevel.postgresql.org/todo
If you like the new design so much, you can setup a copy of the current website
(as outlined in the README) and try applying the new design to it. Then you can
show everyone that it works and send in a patch.
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 23:02 Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 23:56 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 07:55 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-13 08:04 ` Gavin Sherry <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 08:23 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 59+ messages in thread
From: Gavin Sherry @ 2004-11-13 08:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>; +Cc: Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>; Dave Page <[email protected]>; Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; Josh Berkus <[email protected]>; Omar Kilani <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004, Alexey Borzov wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Gavin M. Roy wrote:
> >> Have you checked the todo list? Those are the things we need to do in
> >> the short term if you can contribute.
> >>
> > Nope, I'm sure it's my fault, but I don't know where that is, and if
> > it's in cvs, how to get at it. Alexey posted a tarball of his source,
> > but after my last contribution via email to the current Lucaz design
> > went completely unnoticed and didnt even receive a no-thanks, we'd
> > rather keep it the way it is, I'm a bit out of the loop on what it takes
> > to actually get something done.
>
> The project is on gborg: http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/pgweb/projdisplay.php
>
> What contribution exactly are you talking about? I only remember
> receiving XHTML patches from you recently. These were all applied.
I submitted those patches not Gavin M. Roy.
> If you like the new design so much, you can setup a copy of the current website
> (as outlined in the README) and try applying the new design to it. Then you can
> show everyone that it works and send in a patch.
I agree. It seems as though Omar has done this. Omar, can you send a
patch?
Gavin (Sherry)
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
2004-11-12 23:02 Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 23:56 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 07:55 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 08:04 ` Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Gavin Sherry <[email protected]>
@ 2004-11-13 08:23 ` Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Alexey Borzov @ 2004-11-13 08:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Gavin Sherry <[email protected]>; +Cc: Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>; pgsql-www
Hi,
Gavin Sherry wrote:
>>What contribution exactly are you talking about? I only remember
>>receiving XHTML patches from you recently. These were all applied.
>
> I submitted those patches not Gavin M. Roy.
Ouch. Sorry for that. :)
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
@ 2004-11-12 23:03 Dave Page <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Dave Page @ 2004-11-12 23:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>; +Cc: pgsql-www
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce Momjian [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: 12 November 2004 22:59
> To: Dave Page
> Cc: Marc G. Fournier; Alexey Borzov; Josh Berkus;
> [email protected]; Omar Kilani; [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] [pgsql-www] Alternate
> PostgreSQL.org Design
>
> > > Maybe my dancing elephant image would help in this area. :-)
> >
> > Nah, the colour scheme is all wrong. Can you get a blue one?
>
> OK, fixed:
>
> http://candle.pha.pa.us/tmp/dancing-elephant.jpg
>
> Now, who said web development wasn't fun?
:-)
/D
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
* Re: [PASCAL-advocacy] [PASCAL-www] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design
@ 2004-11-13 12:18 Dave Page <[email protected]>
0 siblings, 0 replies; 59+ messages in thread
From: Dave Page @ 2004-11-13 12:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Robert Treat <[email protected]>; Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>; +Cc: pgsql-www
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Treat [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: 13 November 2004 05:44
> To: Gavin M. Roy
> Cc: Dave Page; Bruce Momjian; Alexey Borzov; Josh Berkus;
> [email protected]; Omar Kilani; [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [PASCAL-advocacy] [PASCAL-www] Alternate
> PostgreSQL.org Design
>
> Gavin, you are on the -www list aren't you? It's been posted
> there many times.
> Just in case not, it's at http://wwwdevel.postgresql.org/todo
It was posted with some other URLs you might find useful earlier in this
very thread :-)
Web CVS: http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/pgweb/cvs/cvs.php/portal
Commiter list: http://gborg.postgresql.org/pipermail/pgweb-commits/
> > Alexey posted a tarball of his source, but after my last
> contribution
> > via email to the current Lucaz design went completely
> unnoticed and
> > didnt even receive a no-thanks, we'd rather keep it the way
> it is, I'm
> > a bit out of the loop on what it takes to actually get
> something done.
>
> Huh? IIRC the last patch I saw you send in was applied by
> Dave a couple days later?
Wrong Gavin! I don't recall seeing anything from you, Gavin (M Roy). Can
you resend it please - maybe my spam filters were bored that day.
> > >I realise I'm probably one of the people you accuse of
> being rude and
> > >shooting down ideas (and if I have been rude to anyone,
> please excuse
> > >me
> >
> > To be honest, I can only come up with a few people off hand and you
> > werent one of them Dave ;). That's not to say.. well never mind.
I'm not entirely sure how to take that!
> This is generally true only if it is a rehash of something we
> have been over dozens of times. Kind of like when people
> pop-up on -hackers and say "I'm ready to start coding up a
> threaded back-end, which files should I be looking
> at"
Wow, that's exactly the analagy I was going to use`
> Otherwise my experience has been more of people asking
> what they can
> do to help and us responding with "look at the todo/look at
> the portal code"
> and then people either disappear or people point out they
> were hoping to implement some CMS or other radical whizbang
> code and then they disappear after we we don't get
> enthusiastic about it.
That's almost precisely my view of the situation.
> You have to realize that this is at least the 5th design we
> have seen for the new site, none of which get us any closer
> to getting the new site launched if for no other reason that
> each of these designs seems to spur another round of website
> flaming. Also, for the record, I ask the tinysofa people if
> they would be interested in submitting some updated banners
> and/or buttons for our propaganda page and got no response.
> That's another example of us trying to find ways for people
> to get involved and people not bothering when it's not on
> their personal agenda.
Would they still want to do it if there was no link to their website at
the bottom of each page? Incidently, Lukasz' design didn't originally
have such a link. We suggested he put one there by way of thanks.
Just a thought...
Regards, Dave.
^ permalink raw reply [nested|flat] 59+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2004-11-13 12:18 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 59+ messages (download: mbox mbox.gz follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2004-11-12 02:38 Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Omar Kilani <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 17:19 ` Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:00 ` Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 19:40 ` Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 21:13 ` Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:24 ` Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:17 ` Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:26 ` Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:31 ` Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:32 ` Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 03:02 ` Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:36 ` Peter Eisentraut <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 04:42 ` Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 05:01 ` Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:33 ` Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:36 ` Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 23:55 ` Gavin Sherry <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:44 ` Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:48 ` Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 23:34 ` Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 08:21 ` Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 11:20 ` Jussi Mikkola <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 11:58 ` Thomas Hallgren <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 09:10 Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Magnus Hagander <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 09:22 Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 15:07 ` Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 15:38 Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 16:51 ` Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 17:14 ` Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 19:53 ` Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 17:01 Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 18:37 ` Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 19:17 ` Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 19:37 ` Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 19:47 ` Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 20:10 ` Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 20:17 ` Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 20:36 ` Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 20:39 ` Oleg Bartunov <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 21:16 ` Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 21:18 Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 21:51 ` Joshua D. Drake <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:18 Re: Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:32 ` Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 00:08 ` Josh Berkus <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 03:29 ` Marc G. Fournier <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:41 Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:47 Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:48 Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 22:58 ` Bruce Momjian <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 23:05 ` Oleg Bartunov <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 23:02 Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 23:56 ` Gavin M. Roy <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 05:44 ` Robert Treat <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 07:55 ` Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 08:04 ` Gavin Sherry <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 08:23 ` Alexey Borzov <[email protected]>
2004-11-12 23:03 Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
2004-11-13 12:18 Re: [PASCAL-advocacy] [PASCAL-www] Alternate PostgreSQL.org Design Dave Page <[email protected]>
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